Modelers Losing Their Luster

[la szum]

That's the real space taker. To me it's always the right amp with the right cab.

When I got the Vox AC30-ish Victory VC35, I was disappointed how through my Bluetone 4x10 with 10" Greenbacks it sounded somewhat similar to my Marshall-based Bogner GF45 SL. Only when I paired the VC35 with Alnico Golds (as Victory recommends) it brought out all that Voxy goodness and had a distinct character that was great.

A lot of the modeling discussion is so heavily centered on amps, yet personally I'd rather take more Dyna-cabs and mics instead.

Yup. The most overlooked element of the entire thing.... along with how to power/monitor the simulations.

 

[la szum]

The best thing modeling did for me was teach me what type of rig was right for me. I tried Voxs, Voxs with drive pedals, Fenders with drive pedals, Mesas, and Marshalls. In the end, I learned that I prefer a driven Marshall that will clean up when I turn my guitar volume down but keep the output in the same ballpark (a Plexi). I also learned that for my genres of P&W, ambient, shoegaze, and post-rock, my delays and reverbs need to go before the amp, not after or into an effects loop. I also learned that, for all the speakers out there, V30s and Greenbacks are ubiquitous for a reason.

So if I ever go back to real amps, I'm absolutely confident in what I would buy. However, every time I think about doing this, the same cyclical mind-game takes place:

• I'd like a real Marshall Plexi
• But they're too loud for my needs
• I'll put the Helix Voltage/Plexi Jump/2203 into the effects loop
• Then I may as well just get a clean power amp
• Class A/B is supposed to be better than class D, but I'd like to run stereo
• Then I'll also need a stereo cab, probably a custom build
• But if it's a custom build, it'll be hard to sell if I don't like it. And how much will it weigh?
• And if I get a 212, it will be way more beamy and directional than my two co-axial wedges.
• I could get an open-back, but then it won't have the impact that my 412 IRs do.
• Maybe I could run it with my wedges
• So a solid-state amp with a cab and wedges? That's a bit OTT
• I should probably just stick to what I'm doing

Rinse, repeat.

Haha! Thank you for reminding us all how absurd the journey really is.

I think this is why I am always re-centering on the fun element. Otherwise, you know....

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Ok... Then he's playing so clean that power amp character doesn't come into play? Or he just doesn't know...

I find this statement interesting seeing we have clips of Helix 2203 with the MV at levels it makes it a JMP-1…

 

[ragingplatypi]

“She’s a [charting-hit-that-doesn’t-sound-like-the-rest-of-the-artists-music] and I’m drowning slowly”

 

[JiveTurkey]

“She’s a [charting-hit-that-doesn’t-sound-like-the-rest-of-the-artists-music] and I’m drowning slowly”

I've never listened to any of their other material

 

[Jarick]

Whatever and Ever Amen is a perfect album start to finish. The songs and harmonies, production, lyrics, all just great. Brick is probably my least favorite song on it.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I've always wondered why Adam Jones didn't switch to a modelling setup. I know Bill Kelliher uses a bunch of it in the studio, but I'm not sure about on tour? Think he's still transporting chunky amps around? Drew from Karnivool mentioned in an interview that he has a bunch of digital stuff at home, but his live tone just has to be pedals and a 5150 moving some real air.

Ah, Karnivool. One of the greatest bands ever.

 

[ragingplatypi]

I've never listened to any of their other material

Listen to “Uncle Walter”

 

[Whizzinby]

The value in having 100 models isn’t to use them all. If everyone picks their 5 favorite amps it will quickly spawn to a list of 100 amps. So having a healthy library of amps ensures everyone finds the handful of amps they like. And before someone says “well you can just tweak amp XYZ to get that Uber Gainz X tone” just remember, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THAT, EVER, THANK YOU. Choice is good and options paralysis is on you.

 

[unix-guy]

In my mind only at ear bashing volumes where you actually clip the powertubes…which in real life only happens at insane volumes with anything 30w and up. Operated within their headroom…ime the differences are marginal at best…check the sound file included.
My line of thought is that a good poweramp is important…but as soon as it’s good…not a toneshaper..sooner a tonekeeper…and any differences between them easily compensated with an eq.

Plexis, Vox and other non-MV amps get a lot of character from the power amp distortion...

I wonder what @FractalAudio thinks?

 

[timbuck3]

In my mind only at ear bashing volumes where you actually clip the powertubes…which in real life only happens at insane volumes with anything 30w and up. Operated within their headroom…ime the differences are marginal at best…check the sound file included.
My line of thought is that a good poweramp is important…but as soon as it’s good…not a toneshaper..sooner a tonekeeper…and any differences between them easily compensated with an eq.

Chugga makes me itch

This is a preamp (send of a Bogner alchemist) straight into an IR...well a profile of a preamp: (be patient if you wanna hear more overdrive..takes awhile before I open up the volume knob )

Ethos preamp:


Comparison of 4 poweramps, 1 SS, 2 6l6, 1 el34…where the only variable is the poweramp

i like the first 2 examples of that soundcloud vrs the last 2 in the 1st part

 

[2112]

The value in having 100 models isn’t to use them all. If everyone picks their 5 favorite amps it will quickly spawn to a list of 100 amps. So having a healthy library of amps ensures everyone finds the handful of amps they like. And before someone says “well you can just tweak amp XYZ to get that Uber Gainz X tone” just remember, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THAT, EVER, THANK YOU. Choice is good and options paralysis is on you.

THIS. It's easy to forget something like a modeller isn't just made for you, it's trying to provide a solution for (just about) everyone.

The upside of those choices is that if you feel like living dangerously and want to try something outside of your wheelhouse, it costs nothing more than your time.

 

[Piing]

The value in having 100 models isn’t to use them all. If everyone picks their 5 favorite amps it will quickly spawn to a list of 100 amps. So having a healthy library of amps ensures everyone finds the handful of amps they like. And before someone says “well you can just tweak amp XYZ to get that Uber Gainz X tone” just remember, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THAT, EVER, THANK YOU. Choice is good and options paralysis is on you.

Very true. Just look at the AMP wish list at the Fractal Forum. It is endless!

It is good to have one single box with tools suitable for all tastes and occasions.

 

[Eagle]

I still want better amplification and a method of calibration. And by better I mean a more authentic experience for the user.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Ok... Then he's playing so clean that power amp character doesn't come into play? Or he just doesn't know...

No. He's shredding your face off.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

In my mind only at ear bashing volumes where you actually clip the powertubes…which in real life only happens at insane volumes with anything 30w and up. Operated within their headroom…ime the differences are marginal at best…check the sound file included.
My line of thought is that a good poweramp is important…but as soon as it’s good…not a toneshaper..sooner a tonekeeper…and any differences between them easily compensated with an eq.

Chugga makes me itch

This is a preamp (send of a Bogner alchemist) straight into an IR...well a profile of a preamp: (be patient if you wanna hear more overdrive..takes awhile before I open up the volume knob )

Ethos preamp:


Comparison of 4 poweramps, 1 SS, 2 6l6, 1 el34…where the only variable is the poweramp

To follow up on ejay's point, @unix-guy with some more traditionally invoked "you gotta have the power amp cooking to get those sounds", scroll through the TL;DR post linked below to the clip at the end for a Helix Bassman model vs a tube preamp only into the same IR.

Yes, there are some real-world amps that have a boat load of power amp distortion, and even some that have a boat load of power amp compression at reasonable volumes (looking at you Princetons). But that doesn't mean that digitally modeling the power amp is the only way to achieve tones that work quite well for sounding like those amps at whatever volume one might need in a fairly compact package.

BLIND COMPARO IS THE BESTO!!!!!!!!! EVEN WHEN THEY MAKE NO SENSE!! Helix vs Synergy

Clickbate audio file is at bottom, but this post will be mostly about how I'm integrating these two things. The Helix Rack/Control is the hub of my audio workstation/guitar rig at the moment. I have added a Synergy Syn1 loaded with the Synergy BMAN module, and its really fantastic in so many...

thegearforum.com

 

[laxu]

The value in having 100 models isn’t to use them all. If everyone picks their 5 favorite amps it will quickly spawn to a list of 100 amps. So having a healthy library of amps ensures everyone finds the handful of amps they like. And before someone says “well you can just tweak amp XYZ to get that Uber Gainz X tone” just remember, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THAT, EVER, THANK YOU. Choice is good and options paralysis is on you.

Yet when the difference between "I saw this amp on YT today and I want it for free in digital form" amp du jour is basically nothing compared to an existing model, is there a point in having a model that says "I am a model of this amp"? Fractal can't buy and painstakingly test every amp that comes out.

I could make the Morgan AC-20 Deluxe sound pretty much identical to my Victory VC35 without doing any advanced tweaking, so if Fractal wanted they could add the Victory by basically copy&pasting the AC20 12AX7 Treble model, and giving it a different name. People would just go "oh sweet, brand new amp model, so accurate!"

It might make sense for Fractal to add some sort of capture feature just to shut up all the people who are constantly crying for new amp models. It's more "I want it! Next week I want something else because a YouTuber told me about this awesome new amp!" rather than "This amp model would add new sounds to the unit". I think we are way past that already. Healthy library, as you say!

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Yet when the difference between "I saw this amp on YT today and I want it for free in digital form" amp du jour is basically nothing compared to an existing model, is there a point in having a model that says "I am a model of this amp"? Fractal can't buy and painstakingly test every amp that comes out.

I could make the Morgan AC-20 Deluxe sound pretty much identical to my Victory VC35 without doing any advanced tweaking, so if Fractal wanted they could add the Victory by basically copy&pasting the AC20 12AX7 Treble model, and giving it a different name. People would just go "oh sweet, brand new amp model, so accurate!"

It might make sense for Fractal to add some sort of capture feature just to shut up all the people who are constantly crying for new amp models. It's more "I want it! Next week I want something else because a YouTuber told me about this awesome new amp!" rather than "This amp model would add new sounds to the unit". I think we are way past that already. Healthy library, as you say!

Or all the modeller guys could work on the front end that the pick attack on say a Hiwatt and a JTM 45 are less same-y.

I mean im sure eventually it’ll happen but as long as theres the big chorus of “its perfect” im guessing there’s no rush.

 

[Whizzinby]

Yet when the difference between "I saw this amp on YT today and I want it for free in digital form" amp du jour is basically nothing compared to an existing model, is there a point in having a model that says "I am a model of this amp"? Fractal can't buy and painstakingly test every amp that comes out.

I could make the Morgan AC-20 Deluxe sound pretty much identical to my Victory VC35 without doing any advanced tweaking, so if Fractal wanted they could add the Victory by basically copy&pasting the AC20 12AX7 Treble model, and giving it a different name. People would just go "oh sweet, brand new amp model, so accurate!"

It might make sense for Fractal to add some sort of capture feature just to shut up all the people who are constantly crying for new amp models. It's more "I want it! Next week I want something else because a YouTuber told me about this awesome new amp!" rather than "This amp model would add new sounds to the unit". I think we are way past that already. Healthy library, as you say!

Nobody is wrong for wanting an amp added to an amp modeling platform regardless of how similar it is to another amp. The job of these companies is to excite its user base. People have attachments to their amps of choice, so it’s logical they may enjoy having them on their modeler.

Was the Fractal lacking Marshall amps two weeks ago? People sure seem awfully happy about the new 800 though.

 

[Jarick]

After struggling with amps/cabs/EQ for a long time, I've been taking a different approach the last couple days with really good early results:

1. I'm back to using Ownhammer IR's that I'm very familiar with and always associated with "my" sound. Currently using the Revolution pack with the "Forward" mixes, which are the 57-121 blend like the classic OH1. These older packs could be described as sounding a bit processed, but the EQ seems to sit well with my ears.
   
   
2. I'm making my EQ adjustments at the amp and not at the cab. So if it's too bright, I'm turning down presence and treble, etc. Rather than trying to flip through a bunch of IR's and playing with cuts. This is something I saw Justin York recommend as well.