Why is spring reverb so hard to model?

[JiveTurkey]

We have a boo parameter. Just in case

 

[yeky83]

We have a boo parameter. Just in case

And the clown emoji for my posts

 

[la szum]

So Jay is saying that those little plastic isolater thingies that a spring reverb tank is mounted upon are of sufficient strength
and absorptive substance that no sympathetic vibrations are transmitted from the cabinet through them to the spring reverb tank??

Am I translating/interpreting this correctly??

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Or you baited him, cus with all that experience and knowledge when someone says "resonance increases with amplitude" it should've stuck out to you like a sore thumb. How could you not have noticed that's obviously what Jay was correcting? Either you don't know your stuff or you baited him, get outta here lol.

Here's why: when I was younger, I used to be like Jay, correcting everyone at every opportunity. Somewhere in my social development, I mistakenly came to believe that this made people think I was super cool and incredibly awesome.

Eventually I realized that correcting people even when the intent of what they meant has been conveyed just makes others not want to interact with you. And trust me when I say this is true even among the people where I work, many of which are waaaaaaay smarter and more educated than me. They rarely correct others unless a misunderstanding is apparent which might have real consequences.

Intelligence is knowing all the right things. Wisdom is knowing when to say them.

 

[norminal]

when I was younger, I used to be like Jay, correcting everyone at every opportunity.

We used to refer to these people as “know-it-alls” and never invited them to the parties.

 

[la szum]

 

[marsonic]

I'll be the first one to say that I don't even care for real spring reverb.

Second.

But, I'll go one further and say I hate most reverbs, in most contexts, as soon as they're loud enough for me to notice them. If I want to hear "space", I want to hear a delay...or an actual room mic if the room is good.

FWIW, I did get the Fractal "Deluxe Spring" to sound decent to me, and it wasn't that hard. But, I also realized that in a mix, I could barely tell it was on. So...might as well remove the block and save the DSP budget.

If I join a surf rock band...I'll make a preset for it. And then start seriously questioning my life choices.

(no shade to surf rock fans - it's just not my thing)

That’s like peanut butter without jelly.

So....better?

(jk....but, seriously, all jelly tastes bad)

We used to refer to these people as “know-it-alls” and never invited them to the parties.

Wait...is that what happened? Hm...the more you know.

(jk)

 

[jay mitchell]

There are numerous reasons that simulations of spring reverbs fall short. Cabinet vibration is not among them. As I alluded to earlier, one of them is due to the initial delay/repeat signature of a spring that is excited at one end and converted back to an electrical signal at the other. This is an extremely important attribute; if you don't recognize and duplicate this behavior, your sim won't quite cut it. More importantly, you can't reproduce this behavior with a recirculator (look it up), which is by far the most common topology used to simulate reverb.

In addition to the above, there is the fact that spring reverbs in amps are, with only a few exceptions, driven by and recovered with tube stages. In the case of Fender reverbs, there is also the fact that the driving tube is transformer-coupled to the exciter at the input end of the spring. There's also the overall polarity inversion that occurs in the reverb channel of all Fender amps.

The point in the amp's signal chain where the spring reverb signal is taken/inserted in a tube amp circuit is also a key factor. In Fender implementations (and probably in many others as well), there is distortion both before and after the reverb. You'll never perfectly nail the Fender reverb sound without that kind of placement in the signal chain.

IME, if you get the first item (initial delay/repeat signature) right and place the reverb in front of the amp block, you can get really close.

 

[yeky83]

Here's why: when I was younger, I used to be like Jay, correcting everyone at every opportunity. Somewhere in my social development, I mistakenly came to believe that this made people think I was super cool and incredibly awesome.

Eventually I realized that correcting people even when the intent of what they meant has been conveyed just makes others not want to interact with you. And trust me when I say this is true even among the people where I work, many of which are waaaaaaay smarter and more educated than me. They rarely correct others unless a misunderstanding is apparent which might have real consequences.

Intelligence is knowing all the right things. Wisdom is knowing when to say them.

Apply this to how you respond to Jay's "pedantic" posts please, thanks.
Cus "I'm better than you cus I'm not a pedant anymore" is annoying, and it's actually the same thing you were doing when you were younger.

 

[laxu]

Second.

But, I'll go one further and say I hate most reverbs, in most contexts, as soon as they're loud enough for me to notice them. If I want to hear "space", I want to hear a delay...or an actual room mic if the room is good.

I actually love reverbs, it's just real springs that I don't care for because of the way they are implemented. Would I like a real outboard spring reverb tank? Probably, but I don't want a big box like that just for reverb when digital options are so great these days.

Inspired by this thread I just spent some time dialing in a few more reverb presets on my Strymon Nightsky. Pretty much everything I have saved in that thing is in a "uh I guess it's kind of plate, hall or room-ish?" territory where I don't know wtf it is but it sounds nice.

 

[jay mitchell]

So Jay is saying that those little plastic isolater thingies that a spring reverb tank is mounted upon are of sufficient strength
and absorptive substance that no sympathetic vibrations are transmitted from the cabinet through them to the spring reverb tank??

Nope. If you haven't actually looked into a spring tank's innards, you will never have seen the isolator springs I referred to.

Am I translating/interpreting this correctly??

No.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

So Jay is saying that those little plastic isolater thingies that a spring reverb tank is mounted upon are of sufficient strength
and absorptive substance that no sympathetic vibrations are transmitted from the cabinet through them to the spring reverb tank??

Am I translating/interpreting this correctly??

He'll probably find something to correct me on no matter how I explain it, but: he's saying that the springs inside reverb tanks are mounted in such a way that the resonant frequency of the spring assembly is below the frequencies produced by guitars. Because of this, they are unlikely to be excited by (i.e., have their resonant modes affected by) electric guitar.

My take: in reality, nothing is ever 100% perfect compared to theory, so they probably are still affected somewhat. Harmonics above the fundamental can still interact with resonant modes beyond the first, to a lesser degree. At any rate, they were designed well enough to work as Fender wanted.

 

[yeky83]

So Jay is saying that those little plastic isolater thingies that a spring reverb tank is mounted upon are of sufficient strength
and absorptive substance that no sympathetic vibrations are transmitted from the cabinet through them to the spring reverb tank??

Am I translating/interpreting this correctly??

I'm guessing these little springs, dunno never taken one apart.

If the whole spring reverb assembly is indeed floating on these little springs, they should have a dampening effect to isolate the spring reverb from the rest of the vibrating cab.

 

[jay mitchell]

They rarely correct others unless a misunderstanding is apparent which might have real consequences.

Uhh, Morton Thiokol, anyone? Maybe some of those engineers shouldn't have worried so much about pissing off their superiors.

"People skills" are widely misunderstood and highly overrated. There's a place for political considerations. Discussion of technical subjects is not one of those places.

 

[la szum]

Where's the beers in this thread?? I think it would go down easier with a couple.

 

[jay mitchell]

I'm guessing these little springs, dunno never taken it apart.

Yep. Here's a non-destructive exercise anyone can do with a tank that's been removed from the cab: push down on the suspended assembly and release it. It will then vibrate at its resonant frequency. If your eyes can follow it as it moves, the resonant frequency of the system is well below the audio range.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Uhh, Morton Thiokol, anyone? Maybe some of those engineers shouldn't have worried so much about pissing off their superiors.

"People skills" are widely misunderstood and highly overrated. There's a place for political considerations. Discussion of technical subjects is not one of those places.

They rarely correct others unless a misunderstanding is apparent which might have real consequences.

Regarding Morton Thiokol, you might recall that some of those engineers absolutely did warn their superiors, and one even tried to stop the launch. That wasn't a lack of people correcting each other. That was poor management pushing for a launch goal at the expense of safety.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Where's the beers in this thread?? I think it would go down easier with a couple.

 

[la szum]

Nope. If you haven't actually looked into a spring tank's innards, you will never have seen the isolator springs I referred to.

No.

So what do you think is responsible for the alteration in a Spring Reverb's response the louder you
turn an amplifier (specifically a combo) up, if you don't mind me asking? Or did you already specify?

 

[jay mitchell]

Regarding Morton Thiokol, you might recall that some of those engineers absolutely did warn their superiors, and one even tried to stop the launch.

Maybe the engineers should have been complete assholes and alerted the media prior to launch. Sure, it would have cost them their jobs. Some things are more important than a job. Point is, using precise language - and correcting those who misuse same - is part and parcel of any technical discussion. If you don't think this is a technical discussion, then we are really in different universes.