Why is spring reverb so hard to model?

[metropolis_4]

What is it about spring reverb? It seems like even the top tier devices out there really struggle to get it right.

The newer Helix one is good and TMP sounds great in videos… the rest…


I feel like there are a lot of players who think they don’t like spring reverb because all they’ve ever experienced is terrible digital spring reverb

 

[mikah912]

What is it about spring reverb? It seems like even the top tier devices out there really struggle to get it right.

The newer Helix one is good and TMP sounds great in videos… the rest…


I feel like there are a lot of players who think they don’t like spring reverb because all they’ve ever experienced is terrible digital spring reverb

I think both Kemper and Fractal have really strong versions of it too.

 

[laxu]

Maybe it's because people have very strong opinions on what they think spring reverb sounds like?

I have read people complain about the spring reverb algorithm on the Strymon Flint, but when I tried it vs the Accutronics long tank in the Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL, it was very similar with the right settings.

Throwing in some choice quotes from @FractalAudio from the Axe-Fx 3 wiki:

"Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same." [9]

"The spring reverb in a fender amp is "effectively" in front because the preamp is essentially linear. Any distortion in a Fender comes from the power amp. Since the preamp is linear putting the reverb before the preamp is the same as putting it after preamp since linear systems are commutative, i.e. x + y = y + x. Also, our spring reverb algorithm has been updated recently and sounds better than before. I used our Fender '63 Reverb unit as the reference." [10]

"For authentic spring reverb sound you want the reverb in front of the amp block. A big reason spring reverbs sound the way they do is that they get colored by the amp." [11]

"The preamp of a Fender doesn't distort much, if at all. Therefore it can be considered linear. Linear systems are commutative. Therefore reverb before the amp is the same as reverb between the preamp and poweramp." [12]

 

[Jarick]

Yeah my guess is the interaction with the spring reverb and the amp volume/drive is hard to model properly, like speaker impedance being kind of dynamic between amp and cab modeling.

 

[marshall2553]

I think both Kemper and Fractal have really strong versions of it too.

Ehh. After selling all my amps and going 100% Fractal a few years ago, the verb in the hand wired Deluxe Reverb reissue I had is really the only thing I still miss. Maybe the Fractal model can be tweaked to sound as good, but I either don’t have the skill or patience to do so. To me the Helix spring reverb is closer out of the box.

 

[fretworn]

Someone go acquire/shoot an IR …

 

[mikah912]

Ehh. After selling all my amps and going 100% Fractal a few years ago, the verb in the hand wired Deluxe Reverb reissue I had is really the only thing I still miss. Maybe the Fractal model can be tweaked to sound as good, but I either don’t have the skill or patience to do so. To me the Helix spring reverb is closer out of the box.

I do make it a point to always run my FM9 reverb either parallel to the amp or in front of the amp. As Cliff notes, seems to get the sound and response more spot-on.

But I agree with you...if I was just taking a random factory preset and switching the reverb from whatever to spring reverb at the end of the chain, then I'd take newer Helix spring reverb all day, every day. And truth be told, I use Helix Native more overall when recording anyway.

 

[Lysander]

The newer Helix one is good and TMP sounds great in videos… the rest…

Was going to mention, Helix spring verbs are surprisingly good. There's an older video from John Cordy shooting out Helix reverbs against a Surfybear spring reverb pedal, where they compared quite well IMHO.

The spring reverb in my FM3 was really good too, but it required tweaking to get just right.

 

[paisleywookiee]

As a reverb snob, and someone who's had the UA Golden and now the Strymon Blue Sky v.2, and multiple amps with great spring reverb, the Fractal model can sound great. But it's not push-button like the Helix one is. I thought it was comically bad at first (probably used "comically bad" to describe it too), but spending some time with it, I got it sounding great. I wish there was a Fractal "block share" function. Would be good for stuff like this.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Maybe it's because people have very strong opinions on what they think spring reverb sounds like?

I have read people complain about the spring reverb algorithm on the Strymon Flint, but when I tried it vs the Accutronics long tank in the Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL, it was very similar with the right settings.

Throwing in some choice quotes from @FractalAudio from the Axe-Fx 3 wiki:

Quote Cliff all you want. Put the Fractal spring reverb set with modest mix in front of the Princeton reverb model with volume on zero, then slowly wind up the amp block’a volume. The reverb changes a whole lot less compared to a real life Princeton Reverb with its reverb knob on 2 as you go from late night TV volume to watching a movie with the fam TV volume level.

 

[jay mitchell]

Someone go acquire/shoot an IR …

I did exactly that several years ago as part of a project I did for a client. There are a few key characteristics of a spring that cannot be duplicated with the most widespread reverb topology. I was able to get much closer with a multitap delay. Not being a particularly big fan of tank reverb, I've only occasionally had use for it.

 

[metropolis_4]

Maybe it's because people have very strong opinions on what they think spring reverb sounds like?

I have read people complain about the spring reverb algorithm on the Strymon Flint, but when I tried it vs the Accutronics long tank in the Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL, it was very similar with the right settings.

Throwing in some choice quotes from @FractalAudio from the Axe-Fx 3 wiki:

I mean, if Fractal has a model called “Deluxe Spring Verb” I’d say that removes any ambiguity about what it’s intended to be


Maybe I just haven’t found the magic bullet yet, but to me the Fractal spring reverbs just sound terrible no matter where I put them or how I set them. They’re super clanky, they’ve got that “delay with lots of short repeats” quality to them, and they don’t drip at all

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

What is it about spring reverb? It seems like even the top tier devices out there really struggle to get it right.

The newer Helix one is good and TMP sounds great in videos… the rest…


I feel like there are a lot of players who think they don’t like spring reverb because all they’ve ever experienced is terrible digital spring reverb

I find spring reverb to be reeeeeeally hard to dial in without constantly comparing to a reference track. I find it a little easier to do putting it post amp, parallel, 100% wet into a compressor and blending it back in to dry post amp signal. It’s really tough to balance the reverb tail length with compression to get “effective tail length”, and almost always winds up wetter than I thought it would.

 

[metropolis_4]

I find spring reverb to be reeeeeeally hard to dial in without constantly comparing to a reference track. I find it a little easier to do putting it post amp, parallel, 100% wet into a compressor and blending it back in to dry post amp signal. It’s really tough to balance the reverb tail length with compression to get “effective tail length”, and almost always winds up wetter than I thought it would.

With my blackface amps all I had to do was turn one knob and it sounded amazing

 

[paisleywookiee]

Not going to get to it tonight, but ima gonna dial in my FM9 to sound like my Blue Sky, then share the preset. Ye all thou judgest my mighty effort.

 

[jellodog]

I mean, if Fractal has a model called “Deluxe Spring Verb” I’d say that removes any ambiguity about what it’s intended to be

I certainly find that model better for the BF tones than the vanilla Spring model. I usually increase the Echo Density too. That seems to help somewhat.

 

[aflynt]

I’m guessing part of the problem is how much the pans and reverb circuits vary in sound. Reverb in old Fenders is VERY hit or miss, IME.

-Aaron

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

With my blackface amps all I had to do was turn one knob and it sounded amazing

Maybe, but where the volume knob is set will change how it sounds, too, even if all sounds are amazing.

I think @FractalAudio could improve work flow in the spring reverb block a little by giving some presets within it for standalone fender reverb tank, shorter combo amp tank, longer combo amp tank, standalone short tank, etc.

 

[Jarick]

As a reverb snob, and someone who's had the UA Golden and now the Strymon Blue Sky v.2, and multiple amps with great spring reverb, the Fractal model can sound great. But it's not push-button like the Helix one is. I thought it was comically bad at first (probably used "comically bad" to describe it too), but spending some time with it, I got it sounding great. I wish there was a Fractal "block share" function. Would be good for stuff like this.

That can be applied to a lot of stuff about FAS. Just don’t let the fanboys hear you saying it

 

[marshall2553]

They’re super clanky, they’ve got that “delay with lots of short repeats” quality to them

This is exactly how they sound to me too. I’ve tried putting the reverb block in front of the amp and tweaking pretty much every advanced parameter and could never dial that out.