Fractal Talk

[Orvillain]

Same. Certainly not enough to list it as a legitimate gripe. If we're gonna get that anal then each of these platforms will end up with a LONG list of issues.

It was significantly worse than my Waldorf Iridium.

 

[unix-guy]

There's modeling the physical properties of electrical components and their interactions (let's call this algorithmic accuracy) and then parameters in those algorithms with specific tolerances like pot tapers (call this algorithmic detail).

Using these terms; Algorithmic Accuracy - yes please. This is why playing through a POD is like eating 3 day old cold pizza and playing through an Axe-Fx is like having the chef's table at a great restaurant. Algorithmic Detail - nice to have but I can certainly make ridiculous guitar noises without it. See pretty much every firmware since Quantum in Fractal land.

 

[la szum]

The whole "authenticity" thing has a bunch of caveats for sure.

• Who determines that X example of the device is The One that best represents it? Fractal can't buy a dozen of every amp out there to find this out. Examples like the JVM JS show that there can be differences, and I think Fractal has redone the Darkglass pedal a few times because the original was busted.
• End users cannot go to Fractal's stash and verify that yes, the model is just like their reference amp. The Rectifier adventures thread shows that Fractal's model matches very closely to their reference amp, but users have raised concerns vs their own amps. Both sides are right.
• Some amps seem particularly sensitive to the cab connected, so loadboxes, different cabs and their speaker impedance curves can have a major effect - leading to cries about accuracy.
• Then there's all this micro-level discussion where people argue whether 10A vs 20A taper is right. This is mostly done by people who own an example of the real amp or are reading schematics about how it should be. Meanwhile most users are just dialing things until it sounds right to them.

I feel we are reaching a point where most users are getting an experience that matches their experience of playing real tube amps. For me we are at a "more than good enough" level where some subtle taper tweak or accuracy improvement does not move the needle, when pretty much all the firmwares Fractal has released this year have worked just great for me. Hell, I wasn't even left wanting back in the Axe-Fx 2 days as I got tones that worked for me.

To me "amp historian" aspects aren't particularly interesting unless Fractal starts adding some actually rare stuff that adds something unique to the system, rather than say Superlead or Dual Recto variants. At 300+ amp models covering over 100 unique amps, plus all the tone shaping tools at your disposal, there's really no tone that you cannot get out of it already.

This could all get very post-modern really, really quickly. Great post and points @laxu

There is something to be said in chasing accuracy, but like you point out there is no monolithic
version of a particular amp type that is "the one." Sad for those chasing a Platonic Ideal in the
form of a Tube Amplifier.

I think "good enough" is an healthy perspective. For me, it's "more than good enough." I still have
plenty of tube amps, but I am not trying to replicate them in the Fractalverse.

Viva la difference!

 

[la szum]

Is it right to make it "authentic" because "some people" want it to be? I mean, you are then wiping away progress, are you not? And where does the majority stand on whether it should be authentic or best tone possible with easiest path? And does majority rule or does Cliff rule (I think we know the answer to that) ;~))

The solution to this IMO is to allow users to swap in blocks they like and get rid of blocks they do not! Imagine if you will, like cabs, to be able to load up some third party amps, or pedals, etc. And to be able to delete ones you KNOW you will NEVER use! Under that scenario, everybody wins. For those who want the closest to historical models, no prob, they are out there. For those who want the simplest path to a type of tone, they will be there. For those who want to explore the future of what can be done with the concept of an amp for the future of guitar amplification, those will be there as well. The later of those 3 options is where I want to live ;~)) Personally I believe that an amplifier should do nothing more than amplify the sound level as it's name indicates. All else should be done with effects which is what all these classic (and modern) amp models are, just another effects box ;~))

But Cliff can only base the models off of the "actual" amps he has at his disposal. I think
he has done a great job, too.

Honestly, I don't see the issue. Probably just too dumb and dated to catch on.

 

[TubeStack]

The touchscreen fails to react to every other touch. Which is a huge fail. Any potential benefits are completely lost the moment I try to name a patch when saving it, and I have to repeatedly press the N key because it didn't register the first two times.

This seems hugely exaggerated, or maybe they’ve improved the touchscreen since yours?

My newer one works very well, rarely requires a re-touch.

… visually joining up the knobs on the screen with the right poo encoder, at least for me, I found quite difficult and distracting.

Same here, although my brain has adjusted in a couple weeks and it happens less.

Because their encoders have detents, there are values you cannot access from them.

That annoyed me too, but you can tap on the screen and then enter the exact value you want.

 

[Achilles]

That annoyed me too, but you can tap on the screen and then enter the exact value you want.

Stopped mostly using the encoders after a while once I figured this bit out.

 

[dean701]

You also have to remember that the modeler industry is organic. The market seems to have converged on authentic models right now. Qc, tonex and kemper attempt to profile exact user equipment. Helix released a faithful jcm2203 and Cliff does a great job on his end. It isn't all just Fractal. Everyone follows what buyers are wanting. It would be great if there were more FAS idealized models though because some of my favorites are the ones Cliff has created.

 

[Orvillain]

This seems hugely exaggerated, or maybe they’ve improved the touchscreen since yours?

Not sure. Aint used one since 2021.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

There's modeling the physical properties of electrical components and their interactions (let's call this algorithmic accuracy) and then parameters in those algorithms with specific tolerances like pot tapers (call this algorithmic detail).

Using these terms; Algorithmic Accuracy - yes please. This is why playing through a POD is like eating 3 day old cold pizza and playing through an Axe-Fx is like having the chef's table at a great restaurant. Algorithmic Detail - nice to have but I can certainly make ridiculous guitar noises without it. See pretty much every firmware since Quantum in Fractal land.

There’s the reply I was hoping to see. 100x this.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I don’t think anyone expects modellers to sound exactly like everyone’s personal amp, but they should be able to get as close as 2 real world equivalents would. It’s surprisingly how similar amps can sound even with some circuit differences (depending what they are). I think generally people overstate how big the differences tolerances make are, usually you can adjust the amp controls to get somewhere close. On modellers with more parameters like Fractal, it should be even easier, and generally is. Just depends on what the tweaks are and if you have appropriate controls to adjust.

 

[iaresee]

I have no interest in seeing Fractal replicate the bad parts of any amplifier's user interface.

A linear gain pot? No thanks.

A tone pot that really only has an effective range over a fraction of it's travel? Nope.

Yea, IDGAF if that's what Leojim Fendall put on the amp -- I'd like something with a useful range of control over the parameter. My ears are just fine for figuring out where on that range I need it to be for me to sound great.

Remember moving your Mark III from home to rehearsal to gig? You'd nudge a pot like a fraction of a millimeter and then you were SCREWED because now your tones were way off. God forbid the graphic EQ sliders get breathed on by that knuckle dragger double fisting 50/50 standing at the side of the stage eyeing up your gear -- you get a warm breeze on those and POOF good bye to your night.

You can have all the sound and suffer none of the user unfriendliness in this brave, new paradigm we live in.

Maybe people are finding modelers are "losing their luster" because they spend more time analyzing the position of pixels on a screen than listening to the glorious tones these things make out of your hands, to your guitars and through your speakers?

Maybe....

 

[JiveTurkey]

Claps in LaSzum

 

[Stone]

I dunno about accuracy and all that, but the thing whats most Important to me is that I can dial in sounds
that put a smile on my face and those tones motivate me and inspire to learn and play
That my friends is whats important to me

 

[Achilles]

Remember moving your Mark III from home to rehearsal to gig?

Now there's one memory I could have done without. Same issue trying to have one in the game room at home with little kids around.

 

[Elf]

LovRemember moving your Mark III from home to rehearsal to gig? You'd

Mark IV in a flight case reporting in! But sometimes in a quiet night I forget the back pains and would like to have you back! Miss you babe!!!!

 

[Achilles]

Miss you babe!!!!

Still got my III red.

 

[Moondog Wily]

But Cliff can only base the models off of the "actual" amps he has at his disposal. I think
he has done a great job, too.

Honestly, I don't see the issue. Probably just too dumb and dated to catch on.

No issue! All good in the Fractal hood as far as I am concerned and with you Brother ;~)) As is, I will never find all the cool sounds I can make with this unit and love every second of trying without having any concern about authenticity other than authentically great tones!! If others need controls that don't do what the labels say they should do or only do it a fraction of the time so they can enjoy the model being 100% accurate and authentic, more power to 'em!!! So there, that is my proof that I am dumber than you ;~))

 

[Whizzinby]

It is not uncommon for folks here to buy and sell and rebuy the same gear

Which time?

 

[James Freeman]

Another thing comes to mind when talking about digital amp model authenticity; having a clear goal of achieving authenticity is in a sense 'easier' than trying to appease to multiple requests based on nothing but subjective taste.

For years Axe Fx modeling accuracy was compromised due to 'fizz' outcries only for this artificial smoothing removed later when everybody realised real amps are fizzy too.
Are we going to keep doing that?

Edit: On the other hand, when people think something is inaccurately modeled, it should be verified for validity and directly compared to the reference hardware under the same conditions.

 

[Whizzinby]

This seems hugely exaggerated, or maybe they’ve improved the touchscreen since yours?

My newer one works very well, rarely requires a re-touch.

They’ve improved some of the touch radiuses, but it’s always been perfectly fine to me.