E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[Orvillain]

This should theoretically disqualify you from an informed discussion. Practically, you will go on, though.

Wrong.

 

[Orvillain]

Sure, in case you have an intimate jazz band setting, they will matter.

Cool, so you actually agree with me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Cool, so you actually agree with me.

I don't. Because all of you folks were all over metal and heavier rock stuff.

 

[Orvillain]

but the reason e-kits don't work live hasn't got much (if anything) to do with those minutiae getting lost.

It is one of the factors in why e-kits are not as suitable for live work as acoustic kits.

I’d think it were possible; like once it detects a second hit it switches to a different sample bank that was captured in a ‘already resonating’ state

Meant to respond to this earlier Drew. But it is totally possible. You record a bunch of 'excited from stasis' samples. Then you take a bunch of samples from a 'excited during an existing tail' state. You maintain a JSON dictionary of all your samples, with relevant pieces of meta-data. You could even take multiple banks of excitement samples, with relevant timing information in the meta-data.

Once you have that, whenever the engine triggers a voice for a particular drum or articulation of a drum, you start a timer, when that drum is triggered again you check the timer. If it is above a threshold, you trigger a sample from the stasis pool. If it is below a threshold, you trigger a sample from the excitement pool.

Depending on how detailed you really wanted to get, you could have multiple thresholds and trigger relevant samples from relevant pools, based on the timer.

Not even that costly from a CPU perspective. Quite costly from a memory and disk space perspective though.

The real sex would be if you could have the same kind of system, but instead of triggering dedicated excitement samples, you performed relevant DSP processing on the sample stream of the stasis samples; adding or emphasising certain frequencies for example. A really stupid way of doing this would be to build essentially a bank of filters into your polymorphic structure for the sampler. All of the filters would be tuned to the relevant frequencies for the loaded drum; and then accumulate emphasis at those frequencies, the quicker a drum is played.

 

[Orvillain]

I don't. Because all of you folks were all over metal and heavier rock stuff.

I did not mention a genre at all in any of my commentary around this particular issue. I named some post-rock bands, and I did that deliberately. If ever there were a genre that mixed the dynamics of jazz with the dynamics of metal, then post-rock is it.

If you're saying to me that these subtle aspects of drums are more relevant for some genres and styles of playing than others, then yes I would agree with that.

But you didn't say that. What you said was, they weren't relevant for the live music environment. Which is simply not correct.

 

[Orvillain]

The main issue I see against the raise of popularity of e-drums is that they complicate things, if you want to extract the most out of them, some how like like guitar modelers do.
They complicate things without bringing substantial advantages.

To operate them properly you need to understand, learn and manage things that are not about playing drums and, on top of that, your instrument feels worst, reacts differently and has limitations (and this is a big different with the modelling the guitar world, where the instrument stay the same).

Not a lot of player are willing to do that, we see that among guitarist where most of them out there buy a modeler, never read the fucking manual and spend tons of money on presets that sound like shit instead of learning how to use the device they've bought.

Yes, I completely agree, and I covered some of this in my post on page 1; which all of these e-kits are the solution for everything people are purposefully avoiding.

Imagine sharing an e-kit on a 3 or 4 band line-up at your local venue. Big belly lols!

 

[Sascha Franck]

But you didn't say that. What you said was, they weren't relevant for the live music environment.

For the vast majority of live shows they are irrelevant. Even for intimate jazz gigs. They may be a part of the sound, but they're still not even remotely as relevant as on recordings.

 

[Orvillain]

For the vast majority of live shows they are irrelevant. Even for intimate jazz gigs. They may be a part of the sound, but they're still not even remotely as relevant as on recordings.

Please define the things you're talking about, because I don't think you're talking about the same things I am.

Go back to my ride cymbal example.

Play a 16th note rolling pattern on a ride cymbal, and you will hear resonance shifting that you do not hear with sample based drums.

Here:


You can clearly hear these shifting resonances from the ride cymbal. Let's put some pretend numbers on it:

Strike 1 - 400hz is emphasised
Strike 2 - drummer hits 4cm away from the first spot, 432hz is emphasised
Strike 3 - drummer hits 1cm away from the second spot, 456hz is emphasised
etc etc

This makes a demonstrable and manifold difference to the final sound of the cymbal. Now extrapolate this out across all of the drums, which will act in similar ways, and it is clear to see how sampled drums differ from acoustic drums.

A lot of this is explained here:

The Well-Tempered Timpani

In Search of the Missing Fundamental: by Richard K. Jones

wtt.pauken.org

TLDR - Yes, these resonance and modal shifting interactions will make a difference in the vast majority of shows. Since we're talking about ekits versus real kits for a live show, I think talking about the physical mechanics behind drums is extremely relevant to the discussion, and you seriously cannot tell me these phenomenon are not relevant to live drums. That is just not the real world.


E-kits are great, and I use them all the time. Drum software is excellent, and is a life's passion for me, and I use them all the time. But let's not ignore reality.

 

[DrewJD82]

Do you guys want me to grab the rulers? Or do you already have your own?

It IS my ruler.

 

[DrewJD82]

I don't. Because all of you folks were all over metal and heavier rock stuff.

In which there’s plenty of delicate shit that still has to make its way through a PA system. Ghost notes on snares aren’t just for jazz, man, us metalheads do that shit, too. If the ghost notes were gated out of snares at a Dream Theater, Devin Townsend, Periphery, or any other progressive metal band, 3/4’s the audience would have an uproar on account of most of them being musicians. Not all metal is about banging shit as hard as you can.

 

[Chocol8]

Not all metal is about banging shit as hard as you can.

Hey, I just learned something new from this thread!!!!


OK, totally not true, but I am grasping for some justification to keep reading it.

 

[paisleywookiee]

It IS my ruler.

Do you use metric like I do, so it makes it seem bigger?

 

[Orvillain]

Hey, I just learned something new from this thread!!!!


OK, totally not true, but I am grasping for some justification to keep reading it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Play a 16th note rolling pattern on a ride cymbal, and you will hear resonance shifting that you do not hear with sample based drums

I'm not talking about real vs. sampled drums. I'm talking about the things @MirrorProfiles mentioned. Such as whatever parts of the kit ringing along, such as the sound changing once someone opens a door, etc. All of that can play an important role on a recording but is largely irrelevant live, even so much that FOH folks rather cut it, if possible. I already mentioned gated toms (you'd hardly gate them as hard as live on recordings, unless it's for a sound effect) or, say, a very typical low cut on hats (again something you may just not go for on a recording). Etc.

Really hasn't got anything to do with real vs. sampled drums. And it's not losing these kinda details spoiling the e-drum fun, either.

 

[Sascha Franck]

In which there’s plenty of delicate shit that still has to make its way through a PA system.

Ok, let's hear some examples (we obviously need room mic recordings, no console cuts).
Seriously, I've been to quite some larger events more or less recently (mixed bunch, GnR, Pink, ACDC, Foo Fighters, Robbie Williams, Lenny Kravitz, etc., you name it), all kinda big acts. And if anything, drum nuances got lost on all of them (possibly the least with the Foos).

Sure, ghost notes might be a bit overexaggerated, but once it comes to anything cymbal-ish, details get lost, pretty much all cymbals sound at least same-ish, hats might get completely lost (unless smashed hard), etc.

And well, even if these are all somewhat audible, the sympathetic ringing of whatever things is likely gated out.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm not talking about real vs. sampled drums.

Well you should be. Because that's what the thread is about, and that's what we were talking about vis-a-vis, physical interactions within the kit.

I'm talking about the things @MirrorProfiles mentioned. Such as whatever parts of the kit ringing along, such as the sound changing once someone opens a door, etc. All of that can play an important role on a recording but is largely irrelevant live

Why do you keep saying this? Nothing is irrelevant live, nor in the studio. Everything makes a difference.

, even so much that FOH folks rather cut it, if possible.

Just because they cut it, doesn't mean it isn't making an impact.

I already mentioned gated toms (you'd hardly gate them as hard as live on recordings, unless it's for a sound effect) or, say, a very typical low cut on hats (again something you may just not go for on a recording). Etc.

You understand that the interactions we're talking about AFFECT THE ENTIRE TONALITY OF THE DRUM. Just because you gate a tom, does not mean that when you hit a tom at the same time as a kick drum, that the interaction and the physical resonance connection between the two drums no longer exists.

Gating happens after all of that real world physical stuff has happened. It literally cannot and is not even attempting to remove them.

Really hasn't got anything to do with real vs. sampled drums. And it's not losing these kinda details spoiling the e-drum fun, either.

Yes, it has everything to do with real vs sampled drums, and indeed, the argument I and some others would make is that these physical, mechanical, and modal changes within a real drumkit are superior to what you get with an e-kit.

You simply do not understand what is being said here. Clearly.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Yep. If ya ever get a drummer who doesn’t give a shit about all the rubber pieces coming off his drum rack, tell him to bring towels and duct tape to a recording session if everything is getting mic’d. Spent forever one evening trying to sort out a “Aaoooonnng” sound coming through the mics, it was one pipe of the rack that had no rubber caps and only one tom mounted on it, every time he hit that tom you’d hear it ringing out.

Ha yep. In my studio I’ve got a drawer full of little tools and spare parts just for situations where unexpected resonances come up

I'm not talking about real vs. sampled drums. I'm talking about the things @MirrorProfiles mentioned. Such as whatever parts of the kit ringing along, such as the sound changing once someone opens a door, etc. All of that can play an important role on a recording but is largely irrelevant live, even so much that FOH folks rather cut it, if possible. I already mentioned gated toms (you'd hardly gate them as hard as live on recordings, unless it's for a sound effect) or, say, a very typical low cut on hats (again something you may just not go for on a recording). Etc.

Really hasn't got anything to do with real vs. sampled drums. And it's not losing these kinda details spoiling the e-drum fun, either.

This is about the samples being triggered sounding fake/unlike real drums. Missing the point and context of it. I go to tons of gigs of all kinds genres, can’t think of a single time where an electric kit was used, and doing so would have been completely wrong. It’s not a thing at all besides in fantasy land, and for good reason.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Well you should be. Because that's what the thread is about, and that's what we were talking about vis-a-vis, physical interactions within the kit.

No. The post I was replying to wasn't about e-kits.

 

[Orvillain]

A real cymbal is a nonlinear, continuous resonant system. That means:

• It rings after being struck, often for several seconds, sometimes up to a minute.
• While ringing, it continues to vibrate in complex modal patterns (not just a single frequency).
• When you strike it again while it's already vibrating, you’re not starting from zero. You're adding energy to an already-active system.

This interaction can cause:

• Phase shifts and constructive/destructive interference between modes.
• Excitation of different modal partials depending on where and how you hit it.
• A very natural and chaotic sense of variation that evolves over time.

Sampled drums simply do not do this. They are nothing more than a voice getting triggered, and then faded out when the next voice is triggered.

This is one HUGE reason why real acoustic drumkits are superior to electronic drumkits.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Gating happens after all of that real world physical stuff has happened. It literally cannot and is not even attempting to remove them.

Dude, seriously - you're talking BS. Gating toms is done to eliminate excess ringing and bleed. So it's obviously done to remove some, shall we say "sympathetic" effects.