Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope

[[Nathan]]

I mean, this is subjective. But as a computer guy, the GUI is a hilarious waste of space that throws away real estate for cutsy Nintendo graphics. I loathe this type of shit.

Eh, i'm a computer guy and I see the merit in it. Sometimes I love getting into the weeds of amp sims or the fractal menus to push and pull sounds... but other times when I'm working at speed and being creative I just want to pull up something nice and have it going in 3 seconds. When you look at a chain in the QC, Helix, FAS etc you need to dive into each block to see whats going on. Nice to just be able to look at the TMP chain and not have to dig. I dont think its "better", but it was a good approach for them IMO, something different to the other big dogs.

I hated the idea at first but I actually like it now. With both Fractal, Helix and QC I stare at an amp block, then have to click to remember what amp I'm using.
Here the path and amp are in clear focus. If you touch the amp you get the controls. If you touch the outs it configures outs. It's as easy as it gets.
Fractal users wanted a bigger display. Here you have an enlarged screen and scribble strips from the get go. I do still have the mk2 fc12

This... also kinda nice when you see someone like Ola's preset at a glance and its an easy to see noise gate/tubescreamer and EVH stealth. I think it works well for the average person.

 

[mbenigni]

Nobody would be forced to leaf through 7 screens of parameters in a touch screen UI any more then they are intentionally and knowingly forcing themselves to mouse/page through 7 screens of parameters now.

Agreed. Provided the parameters are organized in a sensible way with everything an “IRL guitarist” would expect to see on any given device’s front panel on one page, displayed first by default. A lot of people keep implying that FAS’ many parameters can’t be presented with a simple UI, but QCs tabbed layout is a perfect example of how to do the job. Just be sure that all the IRL controls are on tab 1. Not rocket science.

 

[mbenigni]

Another thing that I always forget with IK is they have ipad versions of Amplitube and ToneX that get so overlooked. If Fractal/NDSP/Line 6 were offering this we’d all lose our shit, and with IK it goes almost completely under the radar.

I did indeed lose my shit, but when I tried to use it (shortly after release), it was borked.

 

[Whizzinby]

Agreed. Provided the parameters are organized in a sensible way with everything an “IRL guitarist” would expect to see on any given device’s front panel on one page, displayed first by default. A lot of people keep implying that FAS’ many parameters can’t be presented with a simple UI, but QCs tabbed layout is a perfect example of how to do the job. Just be sure that all the IRL controls are on tab 1. Not rocket science.

100%.

That’s essentially how it is now. The “Basic” tab, which it defaults to, has all the traditional controls. The other tabs are the advanced or non-traditional parameters. They could keep the same structure in a modern/touch UI.

 

[mbenigni]

100%.

That’s essentially how it is now. The “Basic” tab, which it defaults to, has all the traditional controls. The other tabs are the advanced or non-traditional parameters. They could keep the same structure in a modern/touch UI.

Yes and no. Yes there is a basic view, which is what I’m talking about. But that view is sort of floating in a disorienting array of other content - some of it redundant (I think) - which requires vertical and horizontal navigation (using page left and page right NOT left and right or did I get that backwards again?)

There’s a little more to it than just hiding additional controls on a different page. tl;dr - organization.

 

[Whizzinby]

Yes and no. Yes there is a basic view, which is what I’m talking about. But that view is sort of floating in a disorienting array of other content - some of it redundant (I think) - which requires vertical and horizontal navigation (using page left and page right NOT left and right or did I get that backwards again?)

There’s a little more to it than just hiding additional controls on a different page. tl;dr - organization.

I’m referring to the Edit software, where they already have everything grouped and laid out nicely in simple tabs, and displayed cleanly. I wouldn't let the on-device UI influence or be the baseline for anything moving forward.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Eh, i'm a computer guy and I see the merit in it. Sometimes I love getting into the weeds of amp sims or the fractal menus to push and pull sounds... but other times when I'm working at speed and being creative I just want to pull up something nice and have it going in 3 seconds. When you look at a chain in the QC, Helix, FAS etc you need to dive into each block to see whats going on. Nice to just be able to look at the TMP chain and not have to dig. I dont think its "better", but it was a good approach for them IMO, something different to the other big dogs.

I HATE IT.

 

[jellodog]

This is my 2 cents on the the modelling landscape at the moment

That was 5 cents. Made a lotta cents to me though!

 

[ChordInversion]

Well I would have liked to see way more fender amps then say fractal has at launch I mean it is fender right?

This part drives me to distraction. Fender comes out with a high end modeler that lags behind on...selection of Fender amps. And will keep lagging. For a long time. A real head scratcher. I still like mine, mind you. But a huge missed opportunity - especially when they include a Bassbreaker and a Blues Junior but no Tweed Twin or Deluxe. Or Vibrolux Reverb. Or Pro Reverb. And on and on.

 

[mbenigni]

I’m referring to the Edit software, where they already have everything grouped and laid out nicely in simple tabs, and displayed cleanly. I wouldn't let the on-device UI influence or be the baseline for anything moving forward.

But this is precisely the discussion I’m trying to have. To all the people saying, “FAS on-device UI has to suck because it’s just so deep”, I say, “No it doesn’t, just adopt the QC’s UI and add (perhaps many) more tabs.”

 

[norminal]

 

[Whizzinby]

But this is precisely the discussion I’m trying to have. To all the people saying, “FAS on-device UI has to suck because it’s just so deep”, I say, “No it doesn’t, just adopt the QC’s UI and add (perhaps many) more tabs.”

I agree.

I said that what feels like 7 pages back.

 

[mbenigni]

I agree.

I said that what feels like 7 pages back.

Sorry about that. I’m traveling this week and skimming TGF in late night fits of insomnia, mainly.

 

[dean701]

...and if you are referring to my original post #1381, I stated "They can't make a simple GUi... ultimately you will still be leafing through 7 screens of amp parameters and that's the strength of Fractal"
You can call them tabs if you want it's the same thing as pages or drop downs. You are still pressing the screen multiple times and dragging pot parameters.
I have no problem with the current Fractal GUI, i also think that Neurals touch screen sucks. Multiple times at pressing things. It's no ipad. The tmp screen was way more responsive. Perhaps it was just the particular units I had in my possession.
For those that find the Fractal GUI too cumbersome, I agree that a replication of what is on axeedit would be ideal. I just don't want it all to jack up the price another $500.

 

[Whizzinby]

I’m traveling this week

Hopefully somewhere exciting.

 

[paisleywookiee]

But this is precisely the discussion I’m trying to have. To all the people saying, “FAS on-device UI has to suck because it’s just so deep”, I say, “No it doesn’t, just adopt the QC’s UI and add (perhaps many) more tabs.”

To be fair, I was one of those guys. But Laxu set my ass straight! I’m all for improvements, as long as I’m still able to adjust the amount of dust on my power tubes.

 

[mbenigni]

Hopefully somewhere exciting.

Dortmund this week, heading back to Amsterdam tomorrow. But at this point, “exciting” is getting back home to my guitars and my cats. :)

 

[mbenigni]

...and if you are referring to my original post #1381, I stated "They can't make a simple GUi... ultimately you will still be leafing through 7 screens of amp parameters and that's the strength of Fractal"
You can call them tabs if you want it's the same thing as pages or drop downs. You are still pressing the screen multiple times and dragging pot parameters.
I have no problem with the current Fractal GUI, i also think that Neurals touch screen sucks. Multiple times at pressing things. It's no ipad. The tmp screen was way more responsive. Perhaps it was just the particular units I had in my possession.
For those that find the Fractal GUI too cumbersome, I agree that a replication of what is on axeedit would be ideal. I just don't want it all to jack up the price another $500.

I wasn’t referring to your post or any one post in particular. That said…

There’s no reason a tabbed GUI should require more than one touch event (two, if we count selection of the block itself.) That’s the whole point of the tabs: you navigate directly to the one you need, rather than “moving” through them.

The QC touchscreen gets a bad rap for the wrong reasons IMO. It doesn’t fail to respond to touch events in my experience; it just gives that impression because certain screen elements are by (bad?) design non-responsive in certain states. E.g. you can’t move fx blocks while editing block params. Not my preference, but it’s “works as specified” modal pop-up behavior.

Regardless, citing imperfections in GUI X as evidence that GUI Y can’t or shouldn’t be improved doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Just fix the imperfections that have been identified. If screen X is in fact less responsive than an iPad screen, upgrade to whatever tech an iPad uses for screen Y. If the real problem is in software (as I suspect), fix those minor issues instead.

Of course, if you have no problem with the FAS UI then this whole discussion is pointless. :)

 

[laxu]

Just fix the imperfections that have been identified. If screen X is in fact less responsive than an iPad screen, upgrade to whatever tech an iPad uses for screen Y.

The cost and requirements for those can be a problem though. We take a lot of what our smartphones and tablets do for granted but well working touch response is a deep rabbit hole.

• Design of the touchscreen hardware. Modern touch displays are a digitizer-display-protective layer sandwich where to you it seems like the glass surface and screen are one, instead of looking like the display is under a glass panel.
• Display refresh rate. Many phones have moved to 90-120+ Hz displays which allow them to be more responsive because the display updates more often.
• Touch response processing. Even before high refresh rate displays became common, the touch processing would run at faster intervals so it could respond to touch faster even if the display update can't keep up.
• Is the user tapping something, holding their finger down, or performing a gesture (e.g swipe)? Are they doing that with more than one finger?
• Accidental touch detection. The software needs to be able to figure out if you accidentally touched an edge of the screen, or maybe used your palm on a tablet while drawing with a stylus.

Google and Apple have spent a lot of effort figuring this out so 3rd party devs don't have to, but companies making modeler hardware might not be so lucky. Even if they were able to use essentially an OEM phone or tablet touchscreen part that is as good as whatever is on an iPad, the software would still have its own challenges.

So a modeler being as responsive as your phone is not happening so easily. IMO the current units on the market are good enough as most of the actions needed are simple.

---

The more important thing is UI design that is efficient. Fractal's current onboard UI issues are not about the number of parameters or pages, but how much work it takes to get there, figure out where you are, then get to another block, then back again.

Axe-Edit has all the same stuff but getting to things is always only a few mouse clicks away. Same for the QC touchscreen UI. On both any block is always just one click away. Even Helix is kind of halfway with its capacitive footswitches allowing fast access to blocks.

TMP is worse because it's got a lot of zoom in and out stuff going on, and swiping between blocks. There's no super fast way to get from editing say block 2 to block 8 without waiting through some screen transitions first. Most users aren't going to care about that too much, but over time as you become proficient with the unit it might annoy you. It's just more waiting and tapping compared to directly going to the thing you want to change next.

A bigger problem with TMP is the lack of proper scenes. You can assign on/off toggles, parameter changes etc to each footswitch within a preset, but it's a lot harder to track what is going on compared to scenes, and changing them requires some deep diving too. IMO even Boss is better in this regard because you can see a better overview of "what do all these footswitches do" compared to the TMP. I hope Fender improves this system over time.

 

[mbenigni]

The cost and requirements for those can be a problem though. We take a lot of what our smartphones and tablets do for granted but well working touch response is a deep rabbit hole.

• Design of the touchscreen hardware. Modern touch displays are a digitizer-display-protective layer sandwich where to you it seems like the glass surface and screen are one, instead of looking like the display is under a glass panel.
• Display refresh rate. Many phones have moved to 90-120+ Hz displays which allow them to be more responsive because the display updates more often.
• Touch response processing. Even before high refresh rate displays became common, the touch processing would run at faster intervals so it could respond to touch faster even if the display update can't keep up.
• Is the user tapping something, holding their finger down, or performing a gesture (e.g swipe)? Are they doing that with more than one finger?
• Accidental touch detection. The software needs to be able to figure out if you accidentally touched an edge of the screen, or maybe used your palm on a tablet while drawing with a stylus.

Google and Apple have spent a lot of effort figuring this out so 3rd party devs don't have to, but companies making modeler hardware might not be so lucky. Even if they were able to use essentially an OEM phone or tablet touchscreen part that is as good as whatever is on an iPad, the software would still have its own challenges.

So a modeler being as responsive as your phone is not happening so easily. IMO the current units on the market are good enough as most of the actions needed are simple.

---

The more important thing is UI design that is efficient. Fractal's current onboard UI issues are not about the number of parameters or pages, but how much work it takes to get there, figure out where you are, then get to another block, then back again.

Axe-Edit has all the same stuff but getting to things is always only a few mouse clicks away. Same for the QC touchscreen UI. On both any block is always just one click away. Even Helix is kind of halfway with its capacitive footswitches allowing fast access to blocks.

TMP is worse because it's got a lot of zoom in and out stuff going on, and swiping between blocks. There's no super fast way to get from editing say block 2 to block 8 without waiting through some screen transitions first. Most users aren't going to care about that too much, but over time as you become proficient with the unit it might annoy you. It's just more waiting and tapping compared to directly going to the thing you want to change next.

A bigger problem with TMP is the lack of proper scenes. You can assign on/off toggles, parameter changes etc to each footswitch within a preset, but it's a lot harder to track what is going on compared to scenes, and changing them requires some deep diving too. IMO even Boss is better in this regard because you can see a better overview of "what do all these footswitches do" compared to the TMP. I hope Fender improves this system over time.

Sure. I’m not personally advocating for a more expensive screen because I’ve never believed the screen itself was an actual problem on QC. Moreover, Dean701 says he finds the TMP screen satisfactory, so it can’t be entirely cost-prohibitive. I think where QC is concerned, NDSP need to reduce the scenarios where one touch is required just to return the user to the “base” operating state from which subsequent touches are (more obviously) effective. Right now the “manual” returns to base operating state are often perceived as missed events, when they’re actually performing a function.

Agree 100% re: FAS (surprising no one LOL.)