Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope

I think the Helix, especially the LT and Stomp, are still very favorably priced in comparison to other units on the market. Helix Floor, QC and TMP are roughly in the same price category even in the EU, but Helix Floor is still the most "all in one" out of those with its integrated expression pedal, more I/O and footswitching. That said, the QC still seems to be the top seller.

I fully expect that next gen Line6 won't be just a "QC/TMP made by Line6". I think they will actually be far more forward thinking, possible making the QC and TMP feel like the "Nintendo Wii U of modelers" - devices in between the old and new generation.


To me Cliff seems like the kind of guy who has the most fun when he's working on amp simulation and effects. It's like a puzzle he has to solve. I can totally understand that, because that's kind of the part that I love about my own programming work - there's a lot of satisfaction to be had when you figure out a hard problem or manage to make something you feel works great and is elegant code.

He's probably not too far off from having the amp modeling stuff pretty much nailed, and the next gen processing power might get there. Maybe next gen will also have him make fuzz effects that are dead on accurate to their analog counterparts, including interacting with your guitar pickup impedance.

He's not the guy who cares so much about how the unit is to operate, how easy Axe-Edit is to use etc. That's why I've been saying Fractal needs designers and developers who are as passionate about usability as Cliff is about modeling.

Maybe developing on the Axe-Fx 3 still allows him to focus most on the actual algorithms without worrying about architecture or UI. Then they can figure out how to port that to a new architecture that is probably in development for the next gen units because they probably want things like having various switches and channels all in one model instead of spread to several different models. I'm sure there will be a ton of Axe-Fx 3 code behind the scenes on the Axe-Fx 4.


Doug Castro is now probably purely business management and not involved in day to day development operations at all. His days are probably built around figuring out how to make the company more valuable, possibly work with parts supply chain management etc. NeuralDSP appears from time to time in Finnish business magazine articles and the people interviewed tend to be Doug Castro or Francisco Cresp.

The end goal may be the same as many tech startups: get bought by a bigger player, and the top brass get a good payday and people who joined early and own company stock get a decent payoff as well. But with Fender making their own competing product, maybe the brands that might buy NDSP could be e.g Gibson or Zound (who own Marshall).

IMO Christoph Kemper's problem is that he's too happy to sit on his laurels and believe in the superiority of his solution. It took 10 years to get USB audio support on Kemper, to the point people thought the hardware was not there. Similarly the Liquid Profiling seems like something he's experimented with but didn't want to push out unless there was competition.

Kemper Stage and Player are both products that were released years after they should have been, so both feel dated right on release. I imagine they would be far more popular if Stage came out in 2017 instead of 2019, or Player in 2020 instead of late 2023. At this rate, the "Kemper 2" will release in 2028 when everyone else is already ahead of whatever Christoph's idea of a "Kemper 2" might look like if they started developing it in 2024.
I don't disagree with anything you stated.

With regards to Kemper, I don't think there will be a Kemper 2 either. I see Christoph as a visionary that had an idea and in his mind he fulfilled his goal. He opted to add a few additional platforms that utilized the original tech.
As products all reach as close as they can get to replacing amps I wonder where things will go. I think usability and and the enjoyment factor will become increasing important.
After trying the TMP I think they have the easiest device hands down.
They did what Neural attempted to do with the touch screen without the ridiculous preset sharing/liking/cloud setup.
I also wouldn't count out all of the smaller NAM related players. I think they will ultimately bring prices down as more people will realize they can do things cheaper.
As far as each company's vision, I have no idea but I can't see NDSP continuing to create the same rehashed plugins forever. They are all basically the same thing and now with X series and the porting into the QC, the overlap will really show.
Fractal will continue as long as Cliff wants it to but ultimately I think he's achieved what he set out to do.
They can't make a simple GUi. Sure they could add bluetooth, wifi, a touchscreen but ultimately you will still be leafing through 7 screens of amp parameters and that's the strength of Fractal. Cliff could stop now and go out on top for creating the most robust platform. It's all up to him.
I drew the comparison to Christoph not based on the Kemper device but based on a guy who set out to do something and did it then relaxed. I think the Kemper unit is still great.
Could it be better, sure. They could be on their 5th version already but CK was content.
Line 6 can do whatever they want but as everything already sounds so close I'm not sure what they will add to the equation. Their effects are not top shelf. Their device has never sounded the best. They used to have the best UI. Yamaha has never been the best at anything. Very good products though. Line 6 seems to fit that mold. Sure, they could adopt capturing or NAM integration but that won't make them unique in any way.
Fender has an opportunity to take a very user friendly device and perfect its simplicity by adding a few already globally adopted features like scenes/snapshots and then leave it alone. (Not as much as Kemper but more like BOSS) They could attempt to add plugin functionality through Presonus and have their amps DAW based.

I'm just thinking out loud
I could get by with any of these units in their current state, but usability/ease of use will play a factor in sales. I still like Tonex and if they ever marketed a full modeler and made a better UI, I would buy it. If they did it right, i think it would end NDSP. Will they, probably not.

As it stands, my Axe3/fc12 is currently up for sale in an attempt to acquire an Fm9 and potentially the TMP again if they play their cards right.
 
Last edited:
As products all reach as close as they can get to replacing amps I wonder where things will go. I think usability and and the enjoyment factor will become increasing important.
Totally agree. We have gone from "it doesn't sound like a tube amp" -> "it doesn't feel like a tube amp" -> "it is too complicated to use" when people argue about modelers. I think we are 1 generation away from all the modelers being "it's pretty easy to use".

After trying the TMP I think they have the easiest device hands down.
They did what Neural attempted to do with the touch screen without the ridiculous preset sharing/liking/cloud setup.
I haven't tried the TMP, but feel that their pedal/amp graphics, zooming in/out etc at the same time lose the power user performance that the QC has for operating it.

I thought the QC cloud stuff was a great idea, but they left it pretty half-assed. Has it even gotten any new features in the past 3 years?

I also wouldn't count out all of the smaller NAM related players. I think they will ultimately bring prices down as more people will realize they can do things cheaper.
This will probably dominate the "amp/cab sim only" pedal market. Then trickle down to the cheaper multifx units.

As far as each company's vision, I have no idea but I can't see NDSP continuing to create the same rehashed plugins forever. They are all basically the same thing and now with X series and the porting into the QC, the overlap will really show.
They can expand to selling e.g effects only plugins that also work with QC. So far it looks like there's a more compact, cheaper Nano Cortex in the pipeline that will bring their product to a lower price point. After that? No idea.

Fractal will continue as long as Cliff wants it to but ultimately I think he's achieved what he set out to do.
They can't make a simple GUi. Sure they could add bluetooth, wifi, a touchscreen but ultimately you will still be leafing through 7 screens of amp parameters and that's the strength of Fractal. Cliff could stop now and go out on top for creating the most robust platform. It's all up to him.
Axe-Edit is already relatively easy to use, but does not translate to touchscreen + knobs directly. It will always be the "tinkerer's modeler" and that's fine. If anything I'd appreciate if modeler manufacturers figured out how to differentiate their products instead of everyone making the same vaguely Quad Cortex-ish thing.

Line 6 can do whatever they want but as everything already sounds so close I'm not sure what they will add to the equation. Their effects are not top shelf. Their device has never sounded the best. They used to have the best UI. Yamaha has never been the best at anything. Very good products though. Line 6 seems to fit that mold. Sure, they could adopt capturing or NAM integration but that won't make them unique in any way.
I'm most confident in Line6 figuring out something different and exciting. IMO their newer effects sound very good and have no real complaints about the amp modeling either.

Fender has an opportunity to take a very user friendly device and perfect its simplicity by adding a few already globally adopted features like scenes/snapshots and then leave it alone. (Not as much as Kemper but more like BOSS) They could attempt to add plugin functionality through Presonus and have their amps DAW based.
They are still in the phase where they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't care for the TMP because it felt too much like what I've already seen from other manufacturers.

I'm just thinking out loud
I could get by with any of these units in their current state, but usability/ease of use will play a factor in sales. I still like Tonex and if they ever marketed a full modeler and made a better UI, I would buy it. If they did it right, i think it would end NDSP. Will they, probably not.
I won't touch Tonex and am unlikely to get any multifx unit they might make because I don't trust IK to be able to design user interfaces if their life depended on it. Tonex sounds good but I truly loathe using it. It's a perfect example of seeing a product that could be good, hampered by basically the lack of design understanding.

IK's strength is in their pricing. I'm pretty sure eventually people will find that maybe all those captures weren't quite as exciting as they thought, or they find the devices and software annoying to use. Being first to the new capture hw market is a big plus for them though.
 
They can't make a simple GUi. Sure they could add bluetooth, wifi, a touchscreen but ultimately you will still be leafing through 7 screens of amp parameters and that's the strength of Fractal.

Nobody would be forced to leaf through 7 screens of parameters in a touch screen UI any more then they are intentionally and knowingly forcing themselves to mouse/page through 7 screens of parameters now. :ROFLMAO:
 
Nobody would be forced to leaf through 7 screens of parameters in a touch screen UI any more then they are intentionally and knowingly forcing themselves to mouse/page through 7 screens of parameters now. :ROFLMAO:
Like I said that's one of Fractal strengths.
Cliff knows enough on how amps function and includes mechanisms to make them better or circumvent their drawbacks and flaws. Movable tone stacks, dynamics, amp input and output eqs, tweakable SICs, the ideal page. If you don't use them you're missing out but they will need to be on the UI. That and the many others pages for each effect. The duck, eq and damping pages on each effect are what makes Fractal unique.
 
Like I said that's one of Fractal strengths.
Cliff knows enough on how amps function and includes mechanisms to make them better or circumvent their drawbacks and flaws. Movable tone stacks, dynamics, amp input and output eqs, tweakable SICs, the ideal page. If you don't use them you're missing out but they will need to be on the UI.

The QC has pages in the amp block and drop down menus. That would easily translate to paging through amp screens or selecting channels in FAS blocks. The idea that the Fractal is so complex it can’t be integrated into a modern UI is silly, about as silly as thinking you have to use all of the advanced FAS parameters all the time to enjoy their devices.

FAS attracts a certain OCD type that I think enjoys misery. :ROFLMAO:
 
The QC has pages in the amp block and drop down menus. That would easily translate to paging through amp screens or selecting channels in FAS blocks. The idea that the Fractal is so complex it can’t be integrated into a modern UI is silly, about as silly as thinking you have to use all of the advanced FAS parameters all the time to enjoy their devices.

FAS attracts a certain OCD type that I think enjoys misery. :ROFLMAO:
Grooming Alex Trebek GIF by Jeopardy!
 
The QC has pages in the amp block and drop down menus. That would easily translate to paging through amp screens or selecting channels in FAS blocks. The idea that the Fractal is so complex it can’t be integrated into a modern UI is silly, about as silly as thinking you have to use all of the advanced FAS parameters all the time to enjoy their devices.

FAS attracts a certain OCD type that I think enjoys misery. :ROFLMAO:
I think we are saying the same thing
If you are using drop downs or multiple pages it's still multiple taps on the screen.its the same thing.

I never said it couldn't be done. I said it's still going to be multiple presses

Regardless, I have no problem with the current UI.
Whether it's pages, drop downs, a joystick, buttons or touch screen, I see no difference. If they adopted wifi and an ios app that changes things for some people but I would still use axe edit with a laptop as it covers everything.

Edit. I've used the QC and it's no better with a touch screen. An effect still needs to be pressed. It has multiple pages and drop down menus. All could be done with a helix joystick. The cortex control app does make things easier for me as does hxedit for Helix and axeedit for Fractal.
 
Last edited:
I haven't tried the TMP, but feel that their pedal/amp graphics, zooming in/out etc at the same time lose the power user performance that the QC has for operating it.


I don't care for the TMP because it felt too much like what I've already seen from other manufacturers.
Wait. What?
So you haven't tried the device? Lol
...and you're going to compare it?
 
Wait. What?
So you haven't tried the device? Lol
...and you're going to compare it?
Yes, because I can see enough reading the manual, watching various videos of it in operation etc. I have no interest in buying it but would love to give it a spin if I see one in a store.
 
Yes, because I can see enough reading the manual, watching various videos of it in operation etc. I have no interest in buying it but would love to give it a spin if I see one in a store.
Ok. When and if you do, try to make sure it's running 1.3.78 or higher
It makes a difference
 
Edit. I've used the QC and it's no better with a touch screen. An effect still needs to be pressed. It has multiple pages and drop down menus. All could be done with a helix joystick. The cortex control app does make things easier for me as does hxedit for Helix and axeedit for Fractal.

I used a QC for two years, own an AxeFx, and previously had an FM3. I know both platforms. We aren’t having a discussion in good faith, IMO, if we pretend the QC isn’t a decidedly superior UI. It’s not perfect, (nothing is) but it’s considerably easier, faster and more intuitive to use.

Saying that doesn’t lessen my enjoyment using FAS stuff. All these devices have their strengths and weaknesses imo

:beer
 
I used a QC for two years, own an AxeFx, and previously had an FM3. I know both platforms. We aren’t having a discussion in good faith, IMO, if we pretend the QC isn’t a decidedly superior UI. It’s not perfect, (nothing is) but it’s considerably easier, faster and more intuitive to use.

Saying that doesn’t lessen my enjoyment using FAS stuff. All these devices have their strengths and weaknesses imo

:beer
Hey...I'm not here to argue.
I think if you added all of the parameters on the QC that the Fractal has you would have many more drop downs.
As well, I don't think the QC touch screen is that much quicker taking into account multiple missed screen presses and misfires, sweaty gig hands....
Cheers
 
I still like Tonex and if they ever marketed a full modeler and made a better UI, I would buy it. If they did it right, i think it would end NDSP. Will they, probably not.
I can’t imagine IK would do that - their products are aimed at the cheaper end of the market and usually do “just enough”. There is some great tech slipped in there, but NDSP is probably the one company that has R&D of their own comparable to ToneX or NAM, as well as all the legwork done.

It’ll be interesting to see if IK REALLY go for it in the next iteration of Amplitube or not. There’s a killer product somewhere in there, but they usually cut too many corners to make anything truly revolutionary or successful.

If Amplitube adopts some hybrid ToneX technology and seriously ups the game on power amp modelling, essentially remastering the entire library of amps, PLUS revamps the GUI, plus remastering all of the effects, AND makes a HW unit that is nice to use and takes advantage of the above, then maybe.

But based on Amplitube’s previous updates, they tend to be much smaller revisions - some dubious under the hood improvements, a small GUI refresh and a couple of new models tends to be how it goes. Always more frustrating with IK because they have so much in place to make incredible products but hold themselves back.
 
I can’t imagine IK would do that - their products are aimed at the cheaper end of the market and usually do “just enough”. There is some great tech slipped in there, but NDSP is probably the one company that has R&D of their own comparable to ToneX or NAM, as well as all the legwork done.

It’ll be interesting to see if IK REALLY go for it in the next iteration of Amplitube or not. There’s a killer product somewhere in there, but they usually cut too many corners to make anything truly revolutionary or successful.

If Amplitube adopts some hybrid ToneX technology and seriously ups the game on power amp modelling, essentially remastering the entire library of amps, PLUS revamps the GUI, plus remastering all of the effects, AND makes a HW unit that is nice to use and takes advantage of the above, then maybe.

But based on Amplitube’s previous updates, they tend to be much smaller revisions - some dubious under the hood improvements, a small GUI refresh and a couple of new models tends to be how it goes. Always more frustrating with IK because they have so much in place to make incredible products but hold themselves back.
I think the amplitube pedals are very good which frustrates me about amplitube as a whole. If they truly mirrored just the pedals and tonex into one platform it would work. Although why would they ever do that?
I guess you never know. Money is money. They could leave out a few things to make it different. Kind of like how they included a decent reverb in Tonex but not much more
 
I think the amplitube pedals are very good which frustrates me about amplitube as a whole. If they truly mirrored just the pedals and tonex into one platform it would work. Although why would they ever do that?
I guess you never know. Money is money. They could leave out a few things to make it different. Kind of like how they included a decent reverb in Tonex but not much more
I found those X pedals a sort of “nearly, but not quite” attempt. They seemed to blow them out for next to nothing not long ago.

If they released a single pedal with all of them combined, it would be a pretty solid multi fx. I can’t say I was too struck on the sound of them but functionally they’d cover a good amount of ground.

Guessing they’ll return with another stab at it, and maybe TMP and QC will get them thinking - QC has shown that a modeller+capture device is something users are interested in.

Another thing that I always forget with IK is they have ipad versions of Amplitube and ToneX that get so overlooked. If Fractal/NDSP/Line 6 were offering this we’d all lose our shit, and with IK it goes almost completely under the radar.
 
Back
Top