Why no "High End" Behringer Modeler ...... seriously ?

[paisleywookiee]

At one time, in the early 2000's, Line6 was considered a joke, much worse than Behringer today.

No, they really weren't. Behringer was ALWAYS a copy of someone else.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I'd agree about L6 not having the pedigree it has today, but, "much worse than Berhringer"?!

By the early 2000s Line6 had launched multiple original popular products already, such as the original POD bean and the DL4.

Do you even Valvulate bro?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Behringer was ALWAYS a copy of someone else.

So what was the thing they copied the VAmp from?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, that question was serious.
We all know where the layout came from, but it sounded very different.

 

[Lysander]

Fwiw, that question was serious.
We all know where the layout came from, but it sounded very different.

It was a half-assed copy of the POD concept in general. It's not like digital distortions and amp emulations were a novelty back then; it just happens that the POD was the first device doing those well enough. The V-Amp could've have used Zoom algorithms, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

I do recall toying with a V-Amp 2 back in the day and it sounded much better, but Line 6 was already selling the XT line of POD products by then. There was no contest.

 

[Jarick]

IN MY OPINION

Line 6 was never a joke. They drove digital modeling to the masses with the POD and Amp Farm was all over hit records in the 2000's. The Spider amps were not all that great sounding, but they were the ubiquitous practice amp. In the 90's CRATE was the same thing. When Eleven Rack, Axe FX, and Kemper all came out, Line 6 was lagging behind in the pro modeler space. But they came out with Helix and have been really competitive ever since.

Behringer was always kind of a knock off company as far back as I remember in the 90's. I owned some of the rack stuff but wouldn't ever confuse them for being innovative. They do have a lot of success with the X32 digital mixer series and that's been really popular for live systems. I have no idea if that's a knockoff of anything though.

At the end of the day I don't think Behringer makes a digital modeler because there's no room for them anymore. They aren't going to compete in the $1000+ space against Helix, Fractal, QC, Kemper, etc. They aren't going to compete in the mid-level space against Pod Go, Boss, Headrush, etc. And they aren't going to compete in the low end space against Hotone and Valvetron or whatever the hell they are called.

They do have a $25 "tube amp modeler" pedal though, which looks like a knockoff Sansamp.

 

[Lysander]

They do have a $25 "tube amp modeler" pedal though, which looks like a knockoff Sansamp.

Oh, it is. Their "tube amp modeler" pedal is an unlicensed clone of the classic Sansamp GT2.

 

[JiveTurkey]

IN MY OPINION

Line 6 was never a joke. They drove digital modeling to the masses with the POD and Amp Farm was all over hit records in the 2000's. The Spider amps were not all that great sounding, but they were the ubiquitous practice amp. In the 90's CRATE was the same thing. When Eleven Rack, Axe FX, and Kemper all came out, Line 6 was lagging behind in the pro modeler space. But they came out with Helix and have been really competitive ever since.

Behringer was always kind of a knock off company as far back as I remember in the 90's. I owned some of the rack stuff but wouldn't ever confuse them for being innovative. They do have a lot of success with the X32 digital mixer series and that's been really popular for live systems. I have no idea if that's a knockoff of anything though.

At the end of the day I don't think Behringer makes a digital modeler because there's no room for them anymore. They aren't going to compete in the $1000+ space against Helix, Fractal, QC, Kemper, etc. They aren't going to compete in the mid-level space against Pod Go, Boss, Headrush, etc. And they aren't going to compete in the low end space against Hotone and Valvetron or whatever the hell they are called.

They do have a $25 "tube amp modeler" pedal though, which looks like a knockoff Sansamp.

I think the only joke was someone buying a $2000 AXSYS-wtever and believing the hype that it would "replace their tube amp". That's on the person themselves. If anything; I see people who got angry about making that jump back in the day and getting disappointed and holding those feelings through to today.

 

[Sascha Franck]

do recall toying with a V-Amp 2 back in the day and it sounded much better, but Line 6 was already selling the XT line of POD products by then. There was no contest.

In terms of dynamics I even prefered the VAmp over the POD XT (which I also owned) and only went with the latter because I also had their shortboard (which failed in the middle of a gig, with the XT failing a little later - whereas the VAmp is still working...).

Line 6 was never a joke.

True. Especially their PSUs and connections were state of the art. Everybody just loved that the PODs and M-series needed an AC PSU. And everybody loves that 2.5mm barrel plug the Stomp is "featuring" even more. Or the incredibly great form factor of the PSU coming with it, fitting on exactly *zero* pedalboards.
Of course, all this was done for good reasons. Oh, hold on, was it?

 

[Desertdweller]

Yeah, I call BS. I'm not saying our Spider practice amps were highly regarded amongst cork sniffers tube snobs, but POD and DL4 were everywhere in the early 2000s. It was rare to find a major studio on the planet without a red bean somewhere in the control room. The V-Amp was embraced by dealers who weren't authorized to sell Line 6 (but really wanted to), and it was always seen as a pale rip-off by studios, dealers, distributors, and the press. At least Johnson's J-Station had some original ideas and sounded good.

In the early 2000s I did most of my recording with either a Rocktron Chameleon or the red POD bean. It was a different time, but you could get amazing tones out of those at the time. Yeah we didn’t have IRs yet and we needed a lot more post-EQ with the speaker sims of the day, but those were incredibly useful tools, to me at least, and I’m sure to thousands of others. It was nearly impossible to record an amplifier in your apartment or bedroom back then without miking it because we didn’t have reactive load boxes, so those direct digital units were great.

 

[SonVolt]

I love TC, I almost went all in on a g system about 10 years ago ..shit ... probably should now, while I'm thinking about it....those things were awesome....the floor unit one.

View attachment 26876

While they look cool, I would imagine a VP4 or other modern multi-fx would sound much better.

 

[Sascha Franck]

While they look cool, I would imagine a VP4 or other modern multi-fx would sound much better.

The G-System was much more than just an FX unit, though, as it had 4 loops on board. Also, you could either do all the loopstuff on your pedalboard or remove the actual loops and FX circuit unit (which was attached below the switches, display and what not) and mount it in a rack. Incredibly well thought out design (just that it needed some trickery such as humbuster cables to avoid running into groundloop issues).

 

[Desertdweller]

The G-System was much more than just an FX unit, though, as it had 4 loops on board. Also, you could either do all the loopstuff on your pedalboard or remove the actual loops and FX circuit unit (which was attached below the switches, display and what not) and mount it in a rack. Incredibly well thought out design (just that it needed some trickery such as humbuster cables to avoid running into groundloop issues).

I gigged with a G System and it was great. I set up a rack with pedals with it and it worked really well. The Boss MS3 is a strong competitor with it’s 3 loops and ability to change amp channels via relay, and the HX effects is probably the best modern solution, and can be found relatively cheap on the used market.

I currently use the VP4 and while the effects are absolutely top notch, it simply does not have the routing or control flexibility of the HX effects or Boss MS3, but the difference in fidelity absolutely cannot be denied, especially in the reverbs and the awesome plex delay block.

 

[OneEng]

And if Behringer made a World Class Modeler unit, the butt hurt from gear snobs would be off the charts ..... kind of like running naked, backwards thru a corn field.

I could hear them turds a crying !!!!

Which is exactly what happened in the live sound world when the X32 was first introduced ..... but enough people got hold of it and gave it (gasp) really good reviews.

Behringer was always kind of a knock off company as far back as I remember in the 90's. I owned some of the rack stuff but wouldn't ever confuse them for being innovative. They do have a lot of success with the X32 digital mixer series and that's been really popular for live systems. I have no idea if that's a knockoff of anything though.

At the end of the day I don't think Behringer makes a digital modeler because there's no room for them anymore. They aren't going to compete in the $1000+ space against Helix, Fractal, QC, Kemper, etc. They aren't going to compete in the mid-level space against Pod Go, Boss, Headrush, etc. And they aren't going to compete in the low end space against Hotone and Valvetron or whatever the hell they are called.

X32 was a derivative of a MIDAS digital mixer with Klark Teknik digital algorithms and Behringer high volume manufacturing. It wasn't a knock off of anything really, but it checked a ton of boxes for a very low price.... and it sounded WAY better than the digital mixers in its market (Yamaha LS9) which ran in the 20K range at that time (The X32 was 3K).

I gigged with a G System and it was great. I set up a rack with pedals with it and it worked really well. The Boss MS3 is a strong competitor with it’s 3 loops and ability to change amp channels via relay, and the HX effects is probably the best modern solution, and can be found relatively cheap on the used market.

I currently use the VP4 and while the effects are absolutely top notch, it simply does not have the routing or control flexibility of the HX effects or Boss MS3, but the difference in fidelity absolutely cannot be denied, especially in the reverbs and the awesome plex delay block.

And Behringer owns TC Electronics.

Seems like a G System with TC verbs and delays and a modern capture capability would be a winning combo.

 

[pipelineaudio]

A lot of people don't realize what an incredible revolution the X32 was, and even for Midas, it gave them a boost in an area which for the most part didn't exist, but now is a requirement on Riders at certain levels. The idea that a company with that much DSP and a long history in control world couldn't make the uber modeler seems crazy

 

[BenIfin]

Either by direct corporate acquisition, or by "honoring" / "emulating" any existing product, I have no doubt that Behringer have the skills and resources to make a top-tier uber modeler.

Why do I think they don't / haven't ?

There's probably - relatively speaking - not enough $$ profit margin.

 

[Joshual-L]

Does Behringer make anything that is considered high end?

They got DI box that are great and built like tanks for a cheap price.
Don’t know about the other products lol

 

[2dor]

They got DI box that are great and built like tanks for a cheap price.
Don’t know about the other products lol

Yeah and they have a solid frequency response at that too. I love the Ultra-G GI100

 

[laxu]

Behringer is such a weird company when on one side they are trying to push straight off ripoffs of other products, and on the other have bought companies that are capable of making some good stuff. Are there two wings at the Behringer HQ where one is trying to just make some nice music gear, and the other is filled with people who have zero ethics?

I had their Tech21 SansAmp clone at some point, and everything about it was downright cheap but it sounded fine.

I would never trust Behringer to offer the things we love about Line6 or Fractal: Long term support and continuous improvement.

 

[Sedaxel]

Nowadays, IA makes posible for almost anyone to have outstanding amp modeling performance. We all know NAM and other open source capturing tech that can perfectly compare to most refined sims in terms of tone quality.

In the near future, I guess it´d be "easy" for almost any company to implement "capturing based" sims. You know, interpolating between captures, or making simulated tonestacks, or whatever. We´ve seen very small companies launching very good products (St.Rock, Dimehead, etc). And also dirt cheap chinese brands (M-Vave Tank G, for instance). They don´t need experience or a great knowledge in simulating amps... they only need to know how to train an IA (well, I´m oversimplifying, but you get what I mean).

So I don´t see Why wouldn´t Behringer be able to launch a good modeler (they even own TC, so more weight to the reasoning). They already make quite good products... world standard live mixers, arguably? They also have pedals that are very original: Plethora X5/X3 are different to any other pedal in the market... so in a way, they can´t either be acused of knocking off everything.

I´m convinced they´ll make something... not necessarily SOOOON, but they´ll be there, sure.