Updated with Clips: Why is everyone so down on using lots of amp models at gigs?

[HotRats]

That's pretty much exactly what I am doing. Which Marshall model?

Same here.
I've used different models throughout the years just for fun.
2203, Plexi, the Gibson amp (Stone Age 185), Trainwreck, be100, Slo crunch channel and Plexi Trem.

The Plexi Trem is probably the one I've used the most.

Lately I've added variations of the same template preset with the Parker, the Lonestar ch2 and I'm experimenting with the new moon amp.

 

[Sleezy E]

When I first upgraded to helix I was super excited to make a preset for EVERY cover song we did... so I did.

2 rehearsals later and I was back to the kitchen sink.

My bandmates and I agreed that going from the thunderous roar of a tool patch and then into something even as close as a STPish patch was jarring to everyone(volume issues aside)

The few "specialty" presets I still use mostly pertain to variax settings more than amp stuff

 

[Bruce]

I AM starting to use a few more, but my kitchen sink presets now have 3 or 4 amps as opposed to one or two.

 

[dk_ace]

That's pretty much exactly what I am doing. Which Marshall model?

It has varied. Plexi bright, park 75 bright, Brit trem jumpered, ventoux…. Right now I’m using a patch that switches between plexi bright and the placater with another switch that alternates clean/crunch on the plexi and more crunch/ high gain on the placater.

D

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

I get that we've all seen someone who doesn't know what they're doing do it badly. But just because some people do it wrong doesn't mean we have to toss the whole concept.

I always look at amp models the exact same way I look at pedals. They're just tools I can use to achieve different textures and qualities of gain. Is using 4 amp models to get different gain textures any different from using 4 dirt/fuzz pedals to get different gain textures?

If you do it right there's no reason for it to be jarring, or incongruous, or any of the other problems we've all heard before. But also, sometimes you want a certain tone to be jarring or incongruous!

Use 1 amp model for a whole show or use 20. Both are totally legit/valid. All that matters is that you're getting the right sounds for the music you're performing

I think drastic shifts in voicing/sound will or would be jarring to the listener. Going from a scooped, compressed Recto sound to a Marshall sound (ie, the complete opposite) would be kind of weird. I think a couple amps/sounds is fine if they fit the band and performance, but it's a balancing act that is likely not to work out too well.

 

[metropolis_4]

I think drastic shifts in voicing/sound will or would be jarring to the listener. Going from a scooped, compressed Recto sound to a Marshall sound (ie, the complete opposite) would be kind of weird. I think a couple amps/sounds is fine if they fit the band and performance, but it's a balancing act that is likely not to work out too well.

Scooped compressed Recto to Marshall sounds like a great example of how to do it wrong

Is it any different than using multiple dirt/fuzz pedals to get different textures?

When I pick pedals for dirt/fuzz I'm looking for specific pedals that will get the sounds I'm looking for and will sound congruous (or incongruous for the times when I want that). It doesn't seem any different to me to pick amps to get those sounds that sound congruous

 

[laxu]

When I first upgraded to helix I was super excited to make a preset for EVERY cover song we did... so I did.

2 rehearsals later and I was back to the kitchen sink.

My bandmates and I agreed that going from the thunderous roar of a tool patch and then into something even as close as a STPish patch was jarring to everyone(volume issues aside)

The few "specialty" presets I still use mostly pertain to variax settings more than amp stuff

This is pretty much my experience as well. It's easier to focus on a few core sounds and build around those than try to use everything in the toolbox. Of course you can put in the work to make it all work but it might be more effort than is truly needed.

In reality nobody is going to come tell you after the gig "You bastard! How dare you play that song with a Morgan model instead of a Vox model!"

 

[metropolis_4]

This is pretty much my experience as well. It's easier to focus on a few core sounds and build around those than try to use everything in the toolbox. Of course you can put in the work to make it all work but it might be more effort than is truly needed.

In reality nobody is going to come tell you after the gig "You bastard! How dare you play that song with a Morgan model instead of a Vox model!"

See, I think the problem that gets players into trouble is thinking "this band recorded this song with this amp so I need to use the same amp model when I play it". That's what leads to the jarring incongruence everyone talks about.

But if you get rid of that, and think about it in terms of sonic textures that different amps offer, then you start to see ways of using several different ones to get the right effects and the right blends of sounds.

I still feel like, when done right, it's no different than using multiple dirt/fuzz pedals. It's just another approach to getting the tones/textures we're looking for.

 

[Stratzrus]

I'm not "down on it" but I don't use multiple amp models at gigs because I don't need to. I only use the FM9 for effects and drive blocks with my George Benson Hot Rod Deluxe. That gets me all the tones I need.

If I went straight to FOH it would be another story but we play without sound reinforcement (churches, ballrooms, party yachts, etc.). At home it's another story and I use multiple amps every time I play.

 

[DrewJD82]

See, I think the problem that gets players into trouble is thinking "this band recorded this song with this amp so I need to use the same amp model when I play it". That's what leads to the jarring incongruence everyone talks about.

But if you get rid of that, and think about it in terms of sonic textures that different amps offer, then you start to see ways of using several different ones to get the right effects and the right blends of sounds.

I still feel like, when done right, it's no different than using multiple dirt/fuzz pedals. It's just another approach to getting the tones/textures we're looking for.

The other thing to consider is that chances are, the bass player is going to use the same sound in every song, so it’s not just dialing in a new amp to work better for the song, but dialing in a new amp that suits the song more AND works with the band. Definitely not impossible but can get tedious and can definitely lead to some jarring if the homework isn’t done.

And I’m with ya on the sonic texture aspect; if I were in a metal band doing covers I’d most likely use my favorite metal amp regardless if the songs I’m covering used it or not, all that’d matter is that I can go chugga chugga and love the tone. Hell, half the guitarists in the audience wouldn’t know if it were a boosted Dual Rec or a 5150.

 

[TSJMajesty]

The other thing to consider is that chances are, the bass player is going to use the same sound in every song

You know, it's about time the bass players get with the program!

 

[DrewJD82]

You know, it's about time the bass players get with the program!

Or Program Change.

 

[metropolis_4]

The other thing to consider is that chances are, the bass player is going to use the same sound in every song, so it’s not just dialing in a new amp to work better for the song, but dialing in a new amp that suits the song more AND works with the band. Definitely not impossible but can get tedious and can definitely lead to some jarring if the homework isn’t done.

But how many times have you gigged with a bass player who didn't change tones while the guitar player needs to change from clean to crunch to lead?

What I'm saying is does it make any difference if you get those 3 sounds from a clean amp + 2 dirt pedals VS. 3 amp models?

And from there, how about if one song is going to sound best with a crunch tone that is more mid-forward with some jangle, while another song needs a crunch tone that is beefier and fills more space?

Maybe one song needs a really pure clean tone where a Mesa Mark clean works best, but another song needs a clean tone that has a touch of hair on it and a Mesa Lonestar works better.

 

[laxu]

But how many times have you gigged with a bass player who didn't change tones while the guitar player needs to change from clean to crunch to lead?

What I'm saying is does it make any difference if you get those 3 sounds from a clean amp + 2 dirt pedals VS. 3 amp models?

And from there, how about if one song is going to sound best with a crunch tone that is more mid-forward with some jangle, while another song needs a crunch tone that is beefier and fills more space?

Maybe one song needs a really pure clean tone where a Mesa Mark clean works best, but another song needs a clean tone that has a touch of hair on it and a Mesa Lonestar works better.

I think that is fine. Going from a Deluxe Reverb to a Lonestar will be fine as they are at least in the same family.

If you try to go from say Fender to Vox to Marshall within one song, each has a big enough difference in tone (especially if you use a "FRFR" setup with matching cabs and so on) that jumping between them would have you work a lot on your models to make everything consistent. By comparison throwing a drive pedal or two on top of one amp is usually easier.

 

[Bruce]

Another problem with using a ton of different tones is you’ll drive the Soundguy to drink trying to place you in the mix. Just because a sound was album appropriate doesn’t mean it’ll fit your current mix and even if it does, the rest of them won’t. They need to place you harmoniously in the mix before the show and your tones really shouldn’t deviate much from there.

 

[DrewJD82]

But how many times have you gigged with a bass player who didn't change tones while the guitar player needs to change from clean to crunch to lead?

What I'm saying is does it make any difference if you get those 3 sounds from a clean amp + 2 dirt pedals VS. 3 amp models?

And from there, how about if one song is going to sound best with a crunch tone that is more mid-forward with some jangle, while another song needs a crunch tone that is beefier and fills more space?

Maybe one song needs a really pure clean tone where a Mesa Mark clean works best, but another song needs a clean tone that has a touch of hair on it and a Mesa Lonestar works better.

I’m not saying it’s impossible by any means, crazier things have been done and guys like EJ carry 3 different amp rigs specifically for stuff like that.

To your questions; if we’re talking non-modeling then those 3 channels are generally coming from the same amp, which is a lot easier to match volumes on switching between channels because the amp isn’t going to have massive tonal jumps from one end of the planet to the other, where if you’re jumping from 3 different amp models of very different amps, there can be a big enough jump to make it jarring.

Like I said, I’m not arguing it can’t be done and it’s most certainly the route I’d go if I had enough time to get it all leveled out with the band playing. I think maybe the best way of putting it; your average guy who just bought a modeler for the first time and maybe has 3-4 years of gigging behind him might not have the easiest time getting everything leveled out and working great for what he’s going for, as where someone with enough gigging/live sound experience will most likely have much faster/better results.

 

[ejecta]

Another problem with using a ton of different tones is you’ll drive the Soundguy to drink trying to place you in the mix. Just because a sound was album appropriate doesn’t mean it’ll fit your current mix and even if it does, the rest of them won’t. They need to place you harmoniously in the mix before the show and your tones really shouldn’t deviate much from there.

Yeah IME it’s a fairly sure and fast way for the sound guy to longer be your friend unless you’re lucky enough to have a sound guy who knows the set and band well and they could use a digital board to call up scenes for each song but yeah…. yikes even then. I really tend to wonder if someone who thinks using quite a few amps and cabs models during a gig has ever mixed for live sound.

 

[metropolis_4]

Yeah IME it’s a fairly sure and fast way for the sound guy to longer be your friend unless you’re lucky enough to have a sound guy who knows the set and band well and they could use a digital board to call up scenes for each song but yeah…. yikes even then. I really tend to wonder if someone who thinks using quite a few amps and cabs models during a gig has ever mixed for live sound.

I use my ears and dial in the sounds that will sit in the mix with the band in the best way to compliment the music before showing up for the gig so the sound tech doesn’t have to do that. Same as I’m sure you do.

Do you honestly think I would still be getting repeatedly hired back to play if I was as amateur/unprofessional as you’re making me out to be?

Do you want to know how many sound techs have told me they love when I’m playing because I make their job so much easier?

And yes, I have mixed live sound

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I get that we've all seen someone who doesn't know what they're doing do it badly. But just because some people do it wrong doesn't mean we have to toss the whole concept.

I always look at amp models the exact same way I look at pedals. They're just tools I can use to achieve different textures and qualities of gain. Is using 4 amp models to get different gain textures any different from using 4 dirt/fuzz pedals to get different gain textures?

If you do it right there's no reason for it to be jarring, or incongruous, or any of the other problems we've all heard before. But also, sometimes you want a certain tone to be jarring or incongruous!

Use 1 amp model for a whole show or use 20. Both are totally legit/valid. All that matters is that you're getting the right sounds for the music you're performing

What I genuinely don't get is folks looking for the single most versatile digital amp model (see other thread). "I've get this modeler that can nail the sound of 75 different amps, so, what I do is, pick only one of those models and try to force it to sound close to as many of those 75 amps as I can"

 

[ejecta]

I use my ears and dial in the sounds that will sit in the mix with the band in the best way to compliment the music before showing up for the gig so the sound tech doesn’t have to do that. Same as I’m sure you do.

Do you honestly think I would still be getting repeatedly hired back to play if I was as amateur/unprofessional as you’re making me out to be?

Do you want to know how many sound techs have told me they love when I’m playing because I make their job so much easier?

And yes, I have mixed live sound

Did you overlook the “IME”? Do I really have to add YMMV?

You can dial in at home or in your practice place all you want but from gig to gig the rooms change let alone depending how full the room is…. IMHO you are causing a lot more unnecessary variables for your live sound by changing to a lot different amps and cabs when you can easily cover a ton of ground with just couple of presets that don’t radically change.

My guess to why your are consistently hired as you say you are has very little to with you aping guitar tones from the bands you are covering and has EVERYTHING to do with you being a good player and a good dependable hang… with later probably being the biggest reason.