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Tone Nothing Pro still sounds poor to me.
(UPDATED for new FW!) EVH amp vs Axe Fx, QC and TMP...
- Thread starter GuitarJon
- Start date
Tone Nothing Pro still sounds poor to me.
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
I got a comment from a Fender rep (again, really nice guy btw) that the differences I'm hearing are because of the impedance curve and that the various EVH models sound VERY different from each other.
While I appreciate the fact that they are not ignoring this and that they seem to be on top of it, I find those arguments to not be very good.
Regarding impedance curves (again): an impedance curve will have impact on the overal frequency curve of an amp model, it definitely doesn't have an effect on gain amounts that are on tap in a preamp, nor does it really influence how loose or tight the response is of a preamp and its gain stages.
Regarding differences between the various EVH amps (again): sure there are differences between all the models BUT the red channels all do that signature thing, lots of gain, tightness, punch, aggression etc. That's why they are so beloved in the metal genre. The differences can simply be "dialed out". Mainly by tweaking the gain and presence controls. I was even able to make my EL84 LBX lunchbox sound nearly identical to my EL34 and the other EVHs that I've played all sounded close when dialed in similarly.
And even besides this, it did stop the Axe Fx (just as an example) to sound extremely close to my 50w EL34 even though it's based on a 100w 6L6.
One more thing regarding the impedance curves: I don't know if they are the wrong curves or just missing in the IR block on the TMP but usually when an impedance curve isn't modeled, the sound becomes more "middy". Why is the JCM800 even more scooped than the real amp?
While I appreciate the fact that they are not ignoring this and that they seem to be on top of it, I find those arguments to not be very good.
Regarding impedance curves (again): an impedance curve will have impact on the overal frequency curve of an amp model, it definitely doesn't have an effect on gain amounts that are on tap in a preamp, nor does it really influence how loose or tight the response is of a preamp and its gain stages.
Regarding differences between the various EVH amps (again): sure there are differences between all the models BUT the red channels all do that signature thing, lots of gain, tightness, punch, aggression etc. That's why they are so beloved in the metal genre. The differences can simply be "dialed out". Mainly by tweaking the gain and presence controls. I was even able to make my EL84 LBX lunchbox sound nearly identical to my EL34 and the other EVHs that I've played all sounded close when dialed in similarly.
And even besides this, it did stop the Axe Fx (just as an example) to sound extremely close to my 50w EL34 even though it's based on a 100w 6L6.
One more thing regarding the impedance curves: I don't know if they are the wrong curves or just missing in the IR block on the TMP but usually when an impedance curve isn't modeled, the sound becomes more "middy". Why is the JCM800 even more scooped than the real amp?
James Freeman
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,243
Goes to show that fundamental understanding of how tube amps work is THE most important part of tube amp modeling.
I don't care if it has 1000000000 GHz DSP or 20" touch screen with knobs and scribble strips, if the Sound Design and DSP teams do not have fundamental understanding of tube amps, quality Hardware and great UI might as well be lipstick on a pig or a perfect sphere of polished turd.
I don't care if it has 1000000000 GHz DSP or 20" touch screen with knobs and scribble strips, if the Sound Design and DSP teams do not have fundamental understanding of tube amps, quality Hardware and great UI might as well be lipstick on a pig or a perfect sphere of polished turd.
Jarick
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,467
@GuitarJon - I really appreciate your taking the time to do these videos and share your honest thoughts.
A couple months ago I was REALLY close to pulling the trigger on one of these just to see what it's all about. Your videos along with @2112 that showed significant differences tonally against the other big dogs was an eye opener.
I picked up the Quad Cortex instead because I have always loved the form factor and was really enjoying the tones you all were getting with them. And I'm super happy with that unit.
While the new amps sound improved on the Fender, they still don't sound right. Hopefully they keep working on them, because there's a lot of cool stuff going on with the TMP. The effects section looks awesome in particular, and I've enjoyed those tones. Seems closer to the experience of a pedalboard.
But at that price, they need to be nailing the amp tones, and they aren't there yet.
A couple months ago I was REALLY close to pulling the trigger on one of these just to see what it's all about. Your videos along with @2112 that showed significant differences tonally against the other big dogs was an eye opener.
I picked up the Quad Cortex instead because I have always loved the form factor and was really enjoying the tones you all were getting with them. And I'm super happy with that unit.
While the new amps sound improved on the Fender, they still don't sound right. Hopefully they keep working on them, because there's a lot of cool stuff going on with the TMP. The effects section looks awesome in particular, and I've enjoyed those tones. Seems closer to the experience of a pedalboard.
But at that price, they need to be nailing the amp tones, and they aren't there yet.
ian_dissonance
Roadie
- Messages
- 242
Geez. Reading the Big Thread
at TOP it seems Fender believes only their tests are accurate tests and not being able to do what every other top shelf modeler does is intentional or something. I don’t ultimately care, no expression pedal means no buy, but their response to valid criticism is hilarious…..ly bad.
at TOP it seems Fender believes only their tests are accurate tests and not being able to do what every other top shelf modeler does is intentional or something. I don’t ultimately care, no expression pedal means no buy, but their response to valid criticism is hilarious…..ly bad.
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
Geez. Reading the Big Thread
People are actually really mad it me it seems... my methods are wrong, I was dishonest etc. Wasn't expecting that tbh! I did my best. That's all I can do. I wish more people would compare their EVHs to the model. That would be great! It wasn't my goal to make people angry, going in this I really hoped for better results!
ian_dissonance
Roadie
- Messages
- 242
Not your fault in the slightest. People don’t like seeing their $1800 not performing perfectly so they gotta shoot the messenger. Seems everyone who bought one over there really wants a thumb from Fender reps so they’re all pick-me in the comments.
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
I'm afraid the reps aren't happy with me either. I know I wouldn't make anybody happy, heck, I wasn't even happy with the results but I was hoping everybody could remain calm, like the last time.
ejecta
Roadie
- Messages
- 850
How long have you been on the internet?
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ian_dissonance
Roadie
- Messages
- 242
Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but didn’t they argue up and down that the IC wasn’t applied to the cab at first when Cliff suggested it, and now the reason your test doesn’t count is because the IC is built into the IR loader?
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
How long have you been on the internet?
I will always remain somewhat naive or so it seems haha
Mate, there are a couple guys there at TOP whose defensive attitude is absurd. They see a bad intentioned attack in any critic you throw over the TMP. I was banned after "winning a discussion" to one of them... And I immediately asked the moderators to delete my account and all my personal data. Not going back there any more. Dealing with stupid people is just harmful for oneself.
MirrorProfiles
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,361
all you have to do is repeat the test using the built in cabs, and then use the same cabs for the real amp (and or modellers). Takes the SIC/3rd party IR argument out of the equation.
Genuinely also curious to hear the amp with a resistive load vs TMP (while using a 3rd party IR for both) too
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stilwel
Groupie
- Messages
- 37
No one's mad...
I'm confused as to why you did the exact same test as last time. The release notes do not mention anything about updates to SIC handling. So there shouldn't have been an expectation that the results would be that much different using the same methodology as the last time. We will release a solution for this, sooner than later, and then this A/B comparison method will be valid.
stilwel
Groupie
- Messages
- 37
Aw man...are we not calling it TBP anymore?
I was just warming up to it.
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
Well, if the built in cabs do in fact have an IC baked in, the curve will always be different from the curve from my load, right?
MirrorProfiles
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,361
I don’t think the cabs have the SIC baked in, they just cause an SIC to be applied to the amp (at least as far as we’ve been told).
I think STL plugins work a bit like this - if you set the cab to disconnected, it’s a resistive load. If you choose a cab and then bypass the cab block, the SIC is applied to the amp but you don’t hear a cab/mic on the amp
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
The thing is that I don't believe it will matter much. IC's are one thing, but that's a whole other thing than saturation, preamp and tonestack modeling.
ian_dissonance
Roadie
- Messages
- 242
Probably because GearTubers do the thing any time there’s an update. Third party IRs are a pretty big deal for now, it’s make sense to address that ASAP. IMO anyways.
GuitarJon
Roadie
- Messages
- 289
I'll think about it. I don't think there's a way to do it that will please everyone. For me personally I'm content with how I did my comparison. I welcome others to do their own if they so please! It's good to have multiple perspectives! :)
