eggpl@nt
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it's only a legitimate test if Leo breaks into Fender HQ, steals the exact amp, cab, mic, and outboard gear that Fender used to create the models, then uses those for his video comparison.
(UPDATED for new FW!) EVH amp vs Axe Fx, QC and TMP...
- Thread starter GuitarJon
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MirrorProfiles
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IR loader is sort of pointless if it borks the sound of all of the amps. Releasing the product without the IR loader at all would have raised some eyebrows, but it would avoid these situations where customers are posting unfavourable videos. Not sure i really see the benefit of external IR’s with the TMP until the amps actually sound correct when using them.
And it’s hard to tell how good the amps actually sound if you’re forced into using the stock cabs.
I’m still hoping to be blown away by the TMP, but the absolute best examples to me sound fine and the majority just sound bad. I’m not trying to dunk on Fender - I genuinely want to know how good the modelling is.
So far asking questions has led to:
- being gaslit into SIC behaviours and how they’re implemented
- bugs in the EVH and JCM800 which made all previous comparisons null and void
- External IR loader not compensating for SIC, and therefore hearing the wrong poweramp response
The only real benefit I can see over the second rate modellers is that Fender reps are quite active online and promise updates. When the above is addressed, I’d be interested to see how good Fender’s modelling stacks up - so far the demo clips to me sound no better than Headrush/Nembrini/Amplitube standard, and certainly not top tier.
The IR thing is a pretty glaring issue, partly because it’s a huge functional drawback if they don’t work correctly, but also because it’s actually giving a worse impression of what the unit actually sounds like.
I’d still like to hear someone compare to an amp with a resistive load (or fractal with the SIC set to resistive load), and also against an amp DI (either with load box or cab load) and the TMP IR’s. Those tests should be pretty valid as far as I can tell and it would actually make it possible to gauge whether the modelling is good or not.
Basing a modeller on how good it sounds is one thing, but unfortunately, I've heard KILLER sounding clips of a PodXT. I'd feel pretty confident dialling in good tones on any piece of gear if I had to, but thats not going to sell me on it. Given how everyone already has a bunch of emulations of everything, the best criteria for me to set them apart is how accurate they are to the real amps. It would be nice if it was easier to hear the quality of the amp modelling without other factors coming into it.
And it’s hard to tell how good the amps actually sound if you’re forced into using the stock cabs.
I’m still hoping to be blown away by the TMP, but the absolute best examples to me sound fine and the majority just sound bad. I’m not trying to dunk on Fender - I genuinely want to know how good the modelling is.
So far asking questions has led to:
- being gaslit into SIC behaviours and how they’re implemented
- bugs in the EVH and JCM800 which made all previous comparisons null and void
- External IR loader not compensating for SIC, and therefore hearing the wrong poweramp response
The only real benefit I can see over the second rate modellers is that Fender reps are quite active online and promise updates. When the above is addressed, I’d be interested to see how good Fender’s modelling stacks up - so far the demo clips to me sound no better than Headrush/Nembrini/Amplitube standard, and certainly not top tier.
The IR thing is a pretty glaring issue, partly because it’s a huge functional drawback if they don’t work correctly, but also because it’s actually giving a worse impression of what the unit actually sounds like.
I’d still like to hear someone compare to an amp with a resistive load (or fractal with the SIC set to resistive load), and also against an amp DI (either with load box or cab load) and the TMP IR’s. Those tests should be pretty valid as far as I can tell and it would actually make it possible to gauge whether the modelling is good or not.
Basing a modeller on how good it sounds is one thing, but unfortunately, I've heard KILLER sounding clips of a PodXT. I'd feel pretty confident dialling in good tones on any piece of gear if I had to, but thats not going to sell me on it. Given how everyone already has a bunch of emulations of everything, the best criteria for me to set them apart is how accurate they are to the real amps. It would be nice if it was easier to hear the quality of the amp modelling without other factors coming into it.
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adam
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has fender even admitted there is an issue with the ir/ic?
MirrorProfiles
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They’ve said that using amp models with 3rd party IR’s doesn’t load the correct impedance curve for the amp (this is true for most modellers and plugins besides Fractal and STL). They’ve also said this will change with a future update.
A user posted some comparison clips that were done with a real EVH 100W Stealth and TMP cabs, using the correct impedance load (EVH 4x12 cab) with the amp. The TMP still sounds comparatively stuffy and not good. I’ll post them here (from TOP).
Real Amp:
TMP:
I’m curious what’s going on as obviously in Fenders testing conditions the models aren’t sounding this different (otherwise they wouldn't have been signed off or released).
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GuitarJon
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Thanks for posting that! I'm not surprised that I'm hearing basically the same things as I am hearing in my own comparisons despite all the "flaws" of my methods.
MirrorProfiles
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NGL, some of the staunch crazies in that thread are weirding me out big time. Stalking my name and background/ancestry and sprinkling in some casual racism.
Bringing race into a discussion reminds me of this John Cooper Clarke masterpiece:
Bringing race into a discussion reminds me of this John Cooper Clarke masterpiece:
GuitarJon
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eggpl@nt
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The big TMP thread. Do yourself a favor, and don't indulge your curiosity.
MirrorProfiles
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The thread at the other place. It’s odd tribalism that doesn’t really benefit anyone.
They’re questions that I’ve asked for all kinds of modellers and plugins that don’t need to elicit any kind of emotional reaction. They’re just basic questions on how the products work. I asked Softube a similar question on how they handle SIC’s a couple of years ago and got this response:
When the user knows how they’ve implemented this stuff then they can make appropriate decisions on how they use other IR’s or what to expect when using the amp. It doesn’t matter to me if I think it’s THE BEST solution or not, just knowing how it’s been approached is useful to know what to expect from how it behaves.
Presumably when Fender do the next update that addresses this topic, it’ll be covered in the manual and we’ll have all the information we need. The discussion is more heated than it needs to be because there is still some ambiguity/unanswered questions about it (although the recent posts have helped my understanding a lot).
GuitarJon
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Thanks, I definitely won't check it out!
GuitarJon
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That's why people never say: I recommend listening on phone speakers!
MirrorProfiles
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I wish it was more exciting. Basically, if you use external IR’s with the TMP you don’t get the right impedance curve for the poweramp. This is being given as the reason why several comparison tests and (less favourable) tone examples don’t sound good. Fender have said the next update will allow users to choose an appropriate SIC when using external IR’s.
What isn’t quite clear still is how SIC’s are being used in the current format (for instance, Helix and QC don’t change SIC’s with different cab models or IR’s but can still sound very accurate). It’s also not clear what’s causing the amps to sound different when the SIC is accounted for properly like in the example above.
Some passionate TMP users are determined to move the conversation away from this topic, presumably over some kind of insecurity.
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the-trooper
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You're giving too much credit. They released a premium priced unit that can't be properly used with IRs. In 2024.
Let that sink in.
Then have a thought how would that go over if literally and other brand did it!
MirrorProfiles
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Yeah, I’m not 100% I sure why the current implementation is the way it is. I can’t remember exactly but I seem to remember some launch videos missing a few features and it could be that the IR loader was a very late addition.
But I don’t really see the benefit of rushing it out if it can’t be used without making things sound worse. As far as I remember using a 3rd party IR defaults to a generic SIC, and the update will allow users to choose. Helix, QC and most plugins all have fixed SIC’s so it doesn’t need to be a huge drawback as long as they’re chosen sensibly.
The other thing that I don’t get is how things like this don’t get flagged in testing. There’s a number of other products that have gone to launch recently with fairly glaring oversights that should have been dealt with in private beta tests. It feels like IK didn’t really pay much attention to direct models or external IR’s with ToneX.
I’d still rather give all these companies the benefit of doubt, point scoring is a waste of time. The main thing is companies who want to put things right and make things as good as they can be. Some companies are better about this than others, for instance compare how Fractal customers speak about Fractal vs IK customers speak about IK.
the-trooper
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Corporate greed.
Going by the bits of info posted by Fender reps on TOP, it does seem that the SIC is actually in the cab block. An IR was shot for a comparison and temporarily placed in a factory IR slot, which applies the correct SIC.
Or maybe a SIC is applied in the amp block based on the chosen factory cab? But if so, why not just default the amp to a "close enough" SIC when not using the cab block, just like many other products that sound pretty accurate? Problem solved.
Or maybe a SIC is applied in the amp block based on the chosen factory cab? But if so, why not just default the amp to a "close enough" SIC when not using the cab block, just like many other products that sound pretty accurate? Problem solved.
