(UPDATED for new FW!) EVH amp vs Axe Fx, QC and TMP...

[eggpl@nt]

It’s not a fair comparison though because he didn’t account for them not fixing the IR/IC problem, lol.

it's only a legitimate test if Leo breaks into Fender HQ, steals the exact amp, cab, mic, and outboard gear that Fender used to create the models, then uses those for his video comparison.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

IR loader is sort of pointless if it borks the sound of all of the amps. Releasing the product without the IR loader at all would have raised some eyebrows, but it would avoid these situations where customers are posting unfavourable videos. Not sure i really see the benefit of external IR’s with the TMP until the amps actually sound correct when using them.

And it’s hard to tell how good the amps actually sound if you’re forced into using the stock cabs.

I’m still hoping to be blown away by the TMP, but the absolute best examples to me sound fine and the majority just sound bad. I’m not trying to dunk on Fender - I genuinely want to know how good the modelling is.

So far asking questions has led to:

- being gaslit into SIC behaviours and how they’re implemented
- bugs in the EVH and JCM800 which made all previous comparisons null and void
- External IR loader not compensating for SIC, and therefore hearing the wrong poweramp response

The only real benefit I can see over the second rate modellers is that Fender reps are quite active online and promise updates. When the above is addressed, I’d be interested to see how good Fender’s modelling stacks up - so far the demo clips to me sound no better than Headrush/Nembrini/Amplitube standard, and certainly not top tier.

The IR thing is a pretty glaring issue, partly because it’s a huge functional drawback if they don’t work correctly, but also because it’s actually giving a worse impression of what the unit actually sounds like.

I’d still like to hear someone compare to an amp with a resistive load (or fractal with the SIC set to resistive load), and also against an amp DI (either with load box or cab load) and the TMP IR’s. Those tests should be pretty valid as far as I can tell and it would actually make it possible to gauge whether the modelling is good or not.

Basing a modeller on how good it sounds is one thing, but unfortunately, I've heard KILLER sounding clips of a PodXT. I'd feel pretty confident dialling in good tones on any piece of gear if I had to, but thats not going to sell me on it. Given how everyone already has a bunch of emulations of everything, the best criteria for me to set them apart is how accurate they are to the real amps. It would be nice if it was easier to hear the quality of the amp modelling without other factors coming into it.

 

[adam]

John Krasinski before his comedy career took off.

Some say it never did.

But those would be unkind people.

 

[timbuck3]

It’s not a fair comparison though because he didn’t account for them not fixing the IR/IC problem, lol.

has fender even admitted there is an issue with the ir/ic?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

has fender even admitted there is an issue with the ir/ic?

They’ve said that using amp models with 3rd party IR’s doesn’t load the correct impedance curve for the amp (this is true for most modellers and plugins besides Fractal and STL). They’ve also said this will change with a future update.

A user posted some comparison clips that were done with a real EVH 100W Stealth and TMP cabs, using the correct impedance load (EVH 4x12 cab) with the amp. The TMP still sounds comparatively stuffy and not good. I’ll post them here (from TOP).

Real Amp:



TMP:



I’m curious what’s going on as obviously in Fenders testing conditions the models aren’t sounding this different (otherwise they wouldn't have been signed off or released).

 

[JiveTurkey]

They’ve said that using amp models with 3rd party IR’s doesn’t load the correct impedance curve for the amp (this is true for most modellers and plugins besides Fractal and STL). They’ve also said this will change with a future update.

A user posted some comparison clips that were done with a real EVH 100W Stealth and TMP cabs, using the correct impedance load with the amp. The TMP still sounds comparatively stuffy and not good. I’ll post them here (from TOP).

Real Amp:



TMP:



I’m curious what’s going on as obviously in Fenders testing conditions the models aren’t sounding this different (otherwise they wouldn't have been signed off or released).

That second clip sounds rough comparatively

 

[GuitarJon]

They’ve said that using amp models with 3rd party IR’s doesn’t load the correct impedance curve for the amp (this is true for most modellers and plugins besides Fractal and STL). They’ve also said this will change with a future update.

A user posted some comparison clips that were done with a real EVH 100W Stealth and TMP cabs, using the correct impedance load with the amp. The TMP still sounds comparatively stuffy and not good. I’ll post them here (from TOP).

Real Amp:



TMP:



I’m curious what’s going on as obviously in Fenders testing conditions the models aren’t sounding this different (otherwise they wouldn't have been signed off or released).

Thanks for posting that! I'm not surprised that I'm hearing basically the same things as I am hearing in my own comparisons despite all the "flaws" of my methods.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

NGL, some of the staunch crazies in that thread are weirding me out big time. Stalking my name and background/ancestry and sprinkling in some casual racism.

Bringing race into a discussion reminds me of this John Cooper Clarke masterpiece:

 

[GuitarJon]

NGL, some of the staunch crazies in that thread are weirding me out big time. Stalking my name and background/ancestry and sprinkling in some casual racism.

Bringing race into a discussion reminds me of this John Cooper Clarke masterpiece:

What? Which thread?

 

[eggpl@nt]

What? Which thread?

The big TMP thread. Do yourself a favor, and don't indulge your curiosity.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What? Which thread?

The thread at the other place. It’s odd tribalism that doesn’t really benefit anyone.

They’re questions that I’ve asked for all kinds of modellers and plugins that don’t need to elicit any kind of emotional reaction. They’re just basic questions on how the products work. I asked Softube a similar question on how they handle SIC’s a couple of years ago and got this response:

I had a chat with the guitar team and here's the answer from the team:


"The included cabinet was used as a load when modeling the Marshall Amps, and that is typically the case when there is a natural combination of amp and cabinet (like a combo amp or a JCM + 1960 4x12").

In other cases, when there’s no obvious cabinet to match with the power amp, we usually model it with a load that resembles the characteristics of a 4x12". This load is always applied to the power amp, otherwise, the Presence control wouldn’t behave correctly.

However, when modeling the cabinets, we use a voltage source, so that that character won’t get applied twice. So you could say that part of the cabinet sound gets included in the power amp model instead of the cabinet. Since the power amp and cabinet form a circuit it’s difficult to split those two, but we believe this is the best way, as it preserves the way the power amp reacts to a reactive load.

So no, the power amp won’t react differently if you, in Amp Room, place different speakers after it. The characteristics of the speaker are already “baked-in” to the power amp.”

When the user knows how they’ve implemented this stuff then they can make appropriate decisions on how they use other IR’s or what to expect when using the amp. It doesn’t matter to me if I think it’s THE BEST solution or not, just knowing how it’s been approached is useful to know what to expect from how it behaves.

Presumably when Fender do the next update that addresses this topic, it’ll be covered in the manual and we’ll have all the information we need. The discussion is more heated than it needs to be because there is still some ambiguity/unanswered questions about it (although the recent posts have helped my understanding a lot).

 

[GuitarJon]

The big TMP thread. Do yourself a favor, and don't indulge your curiosity.

Thanks, I definitely won't check it out!

 

[riffy]

Well darn it. I couldn't tell any difference listening on my phone. With cans, I sure can though!

 

[GuitarJon]

Well darn it. I couldn't tell any difference listening on my phone. With can, I sure can though!

That's why people never say: I recommend listening on phone speakers!

 

[SKU]

Sorry to intrude but what's this IR/IC thing? Sounds like a meme already. Is it IR / impedance curve?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Sorry to intrude but what's this IR/IC thing? Sounds like a meme already. Is it IR / impedance curve?

I wish it was more exciting. Basically, if you use external IR’s with the TMP you don’t get the right impedance curve for the poweramp. This is being given as the reason why several comparison tests and (less favourable) tone examples don’t sound good. Fender have said the next update will allow users to choose an appropriate SIC when using external IR’s.

What isn’t quite clear still is how SIC’s are being used in the current format (for instance, Helix and QC don’t change SIC’s with different cab models or IR’s but can still sound very accurate). It’s also not clear what’s causing the amps to sound different when the SIC is accounted for properly like in the example above.

Some passionate TMP users are determined to move the conversation away from this topic, presumably over some kind of insecurity.

 

[the-trooper]

otherwise they wouldn't have been signed off or released

You're giving too much credit. They released a premium priced unit that can't be properly used with IRs. In 2024.
Let that sink in.
Then have a thought how would that go over if literally and other brand did it!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

You're giving too much credit. They released a premium priced unit that can't be properly used with IRs. In 2024.
Let that sink in.
Then have a thought how would that go over if literally and other brand did it!

Yeah, I’m not 100% I sure why the current implementation is the way it is. I can’t remember exactly but I seem to remember some launch videos missing a few features and it could be that the IR loader was a very late addition.

But I don’t really see the benefit of rushing it out if it can’t be used without making things sound worse. As far as I remember using a 3rd party IR defaults to a generic SIC, and the update will allow users to choose. Helix, QC and most plugins all have fixed SIC’s so it doesn’t need to be a huge drawback as long as they’re chosen sensibly.

The other thing that I don’t get is how things like this don’t get flagged in testing. There’s a number of other products that have gone to launch recently with fairly glaring oversights that should have been dealt with in private beta tests. It feels like IK didn’t really pay much attention to direct models or external IR’s with ToneX.

I’d still rather give all these companies the benefit of doubt, point scoring is a waste of time. The main thing is companies who want to put things right and make things as good as they can be. Some companies are better about this than others, for instance compare how Fractal customers speak about Fractal vs IK customers speak about IK.

 

[the-trooper]

The other thing that I don’t get is how things like this don’t get flagged in testing.

Corporate greed.

 

[Aleksi]

Going by the bits of info posted by Fender reps on TOP, it does seem that the SIC is actually in the cab block. An IR was shot for a comparison and temporarily placed in a factory IR slot, which applies the correct SIC.

Or maybe a SIC is applied in the amp block based on the chosen factory cab? But if so, why not just default the amp to a "close enough" SIC when not using the cab block, just like many other products that sound pretty accurate? Problem solved.