New Headrush pedalboard: Headrush Prime

[MindCrime]

Pod Go is the way to go if you want a slightly larger, gig-ready floorboard with an expression pedal.

I still think the HX Stomp XL is the price/size/features champion in the Helix line.

I agree !

I have both. (PG and the Stomp XL) They both offer up excellent options with killer tone to be sure.

 

[the swede]

Ok.. its prime lasted to 600 posts on The Grympy Fart forum.

We should note that as some kind of bar for future releases. If a product lasts 600 grumpy farts, it might be ok…. ish

 

[dean701]

View attachment 5774Quick reference to the original Headrush vs. my FM9 which is about as big as I’d want to go.
Credit to “Snowwind” on the forum that shan’t be named for the composite picture.

I think you guys prioritize device size way higher than I do. I could not care less about the size of the modeler. In fact, if it has 1000 buttons, I'm all in. Line the walls with buttons. For me it's all about sounds and user experience, and the UI is number 1 for me. I got rid of my Kemper a long time ago based on the UI alone but loved the sounds.

 

[Evilution]

Sure. I was possibly not quoting you too correctly, sorry.
And yeah, I'm quite aware of the latencies involved in ADDA conversions (typically something around 1-2ms for an entire cycle).

While i dont know exactly what the latency of an AD/DA converter is since it doesnt seem to be listed anywhere, i have looked for it in datasheets even, but considering that the Boss GX-100 has a total latency of 0,7ms (with just an amp and cab activated) in Leo´s tests your argument of 1-2ms doesnt come near to making sense since there are both an AD conversion (input) and an DA conversion (output) included in that 0,7ms as well as the processing. In this case i would at least expect the AD/DA conversion to be under 0,1ms since even 0,7ms is extremely short time for just for the processing alone.

 

[yeky83]

While i dont know exactly what the latency of an AD/DA converter is since it doesnt seem to be listed anywhere, i have looked for it in datasheets even, but considering that the Boss GX-100 has a total latency of 0,7ms (with just an amp and cab activated) in Leo´s tests your argument of 1-2ms doesnt come near to making sense since there are both an AD conversion (input) and an DA conversion (output) included in that 0,7ms as well as the processing. In this case i would at least expect the AD/DA conversion to be under 0,1ms since even 0,7ms is extremely short time for just for the processing alone.

Latency of amp modelers

Physical distance related latency between listening position and sound source is often cited in discussions about latency perception, sometimes to suggest less than commonly understood impact on feel, but its not often highlighted that distance between listening position and sound source, as...

forum.fractalaudio.com

 

[Sascha Franck]

While i dont know exactly what the latency of an AD/DA converter is since it doesnt seem to be listed anywhere, i have looked for it in datasheets even, but considering that the Boss GX-100 has a total latency of 0,7ms (with just an amp and cab activated) in Leo´s tests your argument of 1-2ms doesnt come near to making sense since there are both an AD conversion (input) and an DA conversion (output) included in that 0,7ms as well as the processing. In this case i would at least expect the AD/DA conversion to be under 0,1ms since even 0,7ms is extremely short time for just for the processing alone.

Oh, I completely agree on that. And while I absolutely applaud Leo's efforts, I can't help it but keep wondering whether everything was 100% accurately set up in that very test (ok, you usually can't do much wrong and the guy knows his stuff...).
Those 1-2 ms however are what's usually cited (you can sometimes find more detailed information on quality interface maker's sites).
However, that's also why I said "typically", because apparently Boss has some pretty darn fast converters.
Whatever, if Mr. Gibson's measurements are correct (and as said, even if I keep wondering, I'd have no real reasons to doubt that), it's truly marvellous how Boss pulls that stunt off. Not even the fastest typical computers with the best of their class interfaces (let's say RME or even Lynx) are usually up to such low latencies, not even at 96kHz, let alone being able to perform an entire guitar modeling chain within those boundaries on whatever "live threads".

 

[Lysander]

Oh, I completely agree on that. And while I absolutely applaud Leo's efforts, I can't help it but keep wondering whether everything was 100% accurately set up in that very test (ok, you usually can't do much wrong and the guy knows his stuff...).

Honestly, it doesn't really matter - as long as his results are representative. A +/- 1ms error over, say, a 5ms measurement is 20%... and makes zero difference for any real life application.

Jumping from that, to a double-digit millisecond baseline for Headrush's Amp Clone though, is pretty disastrous.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, some good info on converter latency in this SOS thread:

Forum

www.soundonsound.com

From that thread:

Latency in A-D and D-A converters comes principally from the digital filtering used for the anti-alias and reconstruction filters (respectively), and is typically of the order of about 0.75ms per filter stage at 44.1k, and progressively shorter at higher sample rates.

Alright, I gotta say that this is news to me. It's quite logical, but for whatever unknown reasons, I happened to think of converter latency as a fixed value - but yeah, when thinking about it, as said, it's quite logical that their latency also depends on the samplerate. And as the Boss units are running at 96kHz, that defenitely reduces latency. Still, 0.7ms absolutely stunning, no less.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter - as long as his results are representative. A +/- 1ms error over, say, a 5ms measurement is 20%... and would make zero difference for any real life application.

Depends. In case you're using FX loops, these things add up quickly. Add an inserted digital device and it's not getting much better. But sure, in general I absolutely agree. It's just that those Boss values are incredibly low. I'm now actually wondering whether additional blocks would add latency in the GT/GX units, because packing the entire processing withing those 0.7ms boundaries would be even more of a marvel.

 

[yeky83]

Neunaber Neuron does it in 0.315 ms.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Neunaber Neuron does it in 0.315 ms.

Wtf? How are they doing that? And no, that's not a rethoric question, I'm genuinely wondering.

 

[dean701]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter - as long as his results are representative. A +/- 1ms error over, say, a 5ms measurement is 20%... and makes zero difference for any real life application.

Jumping from that, to a double-digit millisecond baseline for Headrush's Amp Clone though, is pretty disastrous.

All in all, these latency measurements are useless unless they are tried in real world situations. The architecture of the device has to be taken into account and as stated in Cliff's thread, for some devices the latency increases with the load being handled. A fully populated preset with a myriad of effects may not act like one with only a few blocks.
As the well, the HRP is on early firmware.

 

[Evilution]

Latency of amp modelers

Physical distance related latency between listening position and sound source is often cited in discussions about latency perception, sometimes to suggest less than commonly understood impact on feel, but its not often highlighted that distance between listening position and sound source, as...

forum.fractalaudio.com

A couple of quotes from that thread from "Mr Fractal" himself which at least seems to support my assumtion that the conversion is by far the small part of the latency and i havent found any info there that really contradicts my posts.

"The latency for an empty preset in the Axe-Fx III would be 1.2 ms. Of that, less than 0.5 ms is converter latency"

"Processing is usually (much) more than the conversion. Typical converters have around 12 samples of latency (at single-speed conversion). That's 24 samples total (in + out)."

Oh, I completely agree on that. And while I absolutely applaud Leo's efforts, I can't help it but keep wondering whether everything was 100% accurately set up in that very test (ok, you usually can't do much wrong and the guy knows his stuff...).
Those 1-2 ms however are what's usually cited (you can sometimes find more detailed information on quality interface maker's sites).
However, that's also why I said "typically", because apparently Boss has some pretty darn fast converters.
Whatever, if Mr. Gibson's measurements are correct (and as said, even if I keep wondering, I'd have no real reasons to doubt that), it's truly marvellous how Boss pulls that stunt off. Not even the fastest typical computers with the best of their class interfaces (let's say RME or even Lynx) are usually up to such low latencies, not even at 96kHz, let alone being able to perform an entire guitar modeling chain within those boundaries on whatever "live threads".

Its seems that "Mr Fractal" got very similar results as Leo which he posted in that thread that was linked here, he didnt have a Boss unit though, but a few other brands and why would Leo make the same misstake several times with both the GT-1000 and the GX-100 which showed 0,7ms in his tests.

I think the reason why Boss units are incredibly fast are that they use their own custom DSP chip unlike the others which use of the shelf generic ones, with a custom chip you can make it more optimal for your perticular task.

Whatever the exact latency of a AD/DA converter is i think we should agree with "Mr Fractal" that converter latency is less than 0,5ms (AD+DA= Input+output).

 

[Lysander]

All in all, these latency measurements are useless unless they are tried in real world situations.

Agreed. Leo Gibson does a surprisingly better job than most in measuring latency for devices under different conditions but, yeah, ultimately these figures are to be read more as representative than dead-on accurate.

Having said that, a 3x difference between latency for other flagships vs. the Headrush Prime is... hard to justify. I really hope they get to improve on this with later software updates.

 

[dean701]

Agreed. Leo Gibson does a surprisingly better job than most in measuring latency for devices under different conditions but, yeah, ultimately these figures are to be read more as representative than dead-on accurate.

Having said that, a 3x difference between latency for other flagships vs. the Headrush Prime is... hard to justify. I really hope they get to improve on this with later software updates.

Regardless of latency statistics, the device has to first sound good to the user and be acceptable or even fun to use. Then If the latency is within acceptable limits it's a winner to me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think the reason why Boss units are incredibly fast are that they use their own custom DSP chip unlike the others which use of the shelf generic ones, with a custom chip you can make it more optimal for your perticular task.

Yeah, quite likely.

Whatever the exact latency of a AD/DA converter is i think we should agree with "Mr Fractal" that converter latency is less than 0,5ms (AD+DA= Input+output).

Seems to be like it these days. I was just posting what was more or less common figures some years back. Apparently there's been improvements on that end, too.

 

[the swede]

I think the reason why Boss units are incredibly fast are that they use their own custom DSP chip unlike the others which use of the shelf generic ones, with a custom chip you can make it more optimal for your perticular task.

If only Apple would let their music teams do something (very guitar centric) with “M”….

One can dream

 

[Foxmeister]

As the well, the HRP is on early firmware.

My "concern" in this particular case would be that it sounds like the amp clone functionality is just repackaged Revalver and, anecdotally, it does seem that Headrush have a penchant for simply adding to repackaged software rather than reengineering it to make it "better".

However, I do think it is fair to give them the benefit of the doubt here - that being said, I wouldn't be an early adopter of the HRP for this reason!

 

[Bob Zaod]

I think you guys prioritize device size way higher than I do. I could not care less about the size of the modeler. In fact, if it has 1000 buttons, I'm all in. Line the walls with buttons. For me it's all about sounds and user experience, and the UI is number 1 for me. I got rid of my Kemper a long time ago based on the UI alone but loved the sounds.

I have also come around to that way of thinking. For a little while I was obsessed with reducing the real estate in front of me but could find nothing that would do what my Helix LT does for me in one small pedal. I mean technically if I wanted to deal with 18 patches or something I could do it with a Stomp or an XL but I really like being able to cover so many things with just a couple patches. I forced myself to get used to having a big board in front of me and now I can't live without it.

 

[Foxmeister]

I mean technically if I wanted to deal with 18 patches or something I could do it with a Stomp or an XL but I really like being able to cover so many things with just a couple patches.

Two Stomps talking to each other via MIDI would likely get you there with a very small footprint!

(Or one Stomp with a ToneX in the loop!)