Modelers Losing Their Luster

[laxu]

Can't speak for anyone else, but sometimes it's quite a lot. One of the reasons I'm booked is that I'm able to quickly suit a whole variety of musical situations. And one of the parts to accomplish that is to quickly adjust my sounds to accomodate the situation. Most modelers are extremely bad for such tasks, especially once you start switching patches because apart from two (Axe FX and GT-1000), none of them support global blocks (ok, the Kemper has the parameter lock, which seems to be fine for at least some situations).
Usually they also don't offer enough directly exposed controls. Something I'm adjusting at pretty much every gig is the drive/tonestack of my two main "channels" (an Amplifirebox and an Amp Academy). This already get's me there by, say, 70%. But it's 10 parameters already (gain, level, BMT for each). More than any modeler is offering, let alone I have the two channels next to each other. And well, that's just the two core channels, we haven't talked dirt/dynamic/EQ pedals and FX yet. Which are only multiplying the issues.

As said, I can't speak for other folks, but being able to adjust everything quickly for me adds more worth to my setup than whatever last bits of authenticity.

I really appreciate my BluGuitar Amp 1 for this sort of thing.

The Amp 1 EQ is not your standard tone stack. In fact you cannot adjust the tone stack at all on this amp! The only control you have for it is the tiny tone knob on 3 of the 4 channels which blends between two fixed tonestacks afaik. The Vintage channel (based on Thomas Blug's modded "black flag" Marshall) doesn't have one at all because Blug believes it's exactly right the way it is (and I agree).

Instead the 3-band EQ is more like having a simple parametric EQ pedal in the fx loop - low/high shelf filters and a 600 Hz midrange filter. This gives it way more range than a typical Marshall tonestack, and it's very effective considering the bands don't interact with each other like a typical passive tone stack does. I use it mainly to fit the tone to the guitar, cab, room and band mix so it sounds balanced and fitting - not too bright, not too boomy, not too honky etc.

Maybe adding something like an Empress ParaEQ or the brand new GFI Enieqma could be helpful for your rig?

 

[Byrdman]

Personally, I absolutely don't think so. Having to permanently grab the mouse is such an annoying thing. Physical knobs are a difference like night and day for me.

What if you dont have to grab a mouse? App on you phone that could scroll L/R through your digital rig components while being able to turn knobs by up and down finger motions that gives you immediate results. It could possibly be almost as easy and quick as real knobs if done right.

 

[Will Chen]

Once you go Fractal you never go back(tal).

 

[Sascha Franck]

I knew that video already. Pure class.
Still not exactly related...

 

[northern_fox]

I'd say completely the opposite. Modellers taught people that amps matter a lot, and that every little bit in the signal chain matters.

This is why you see people like James going on multi-year campaigns to add a specific model to a modeller.... because amps DO matter. There is a reason we're not using 62 bluesbreakers for our brutal metal projects.

I mean I'm certainly not saying they don't matter or that we don't/shouldn't have preferences as players, just that when you can flip through a bunch of amps or captures and realize just how similarly they can be dialed in when all other things are equal you see that the final product (mix) isn't as strongly dependent on the amp as it is on other factors such as the cab/IR and performance. It was pretty much impossible to do that pre-modeler. Modelers can really let you get to know any specific amp's tone and response, but at the same time sort of levels the playing field for comparison.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Maybe adding something like an Empress ParaEQ or the brand new GFI Enieqma could be helpful for your rig?

To be honest, with my current rig I don't need anything, apart from a few details (partially sound-related, partially regarding practicability), it's close to being perfect for my needs (would like to shrink it down a bit, though).

 

[Sascha Franck]

What if you dont have to grab a mouse? App on you phone that could scroll L/R through your digital rig components while being able to turn knobs by up and down finger motions that gives you immediate results. It could possibly be almost as easy and quick as real knobs if done right.

I set up something like that already for the Helix Floor. It was excellent from the idea - just that the Floor doesn't play well with any of these ideas.

 

[Frodebro]

I knew that video already. Pure class.
Still not exactly related...

Yeah, but for some twisted reason it popped into my head when I read your post.

 

[Byrdman]

I set up something like that already for the Helix Floor. It was excellent from the idea - just that the Floor doesn't play well with any of these ideas.

Just thinking out loud. I'm beginning to think that now all(most) modelers are within a few +/-'s of each other, we may see a lot of updates with the UI. Just seems logical, 20 years ago modelers pretty much sucked compared to today and now accuracy with most modelers is at an all time high, so things that were overlooked but worked, will be next to increase ease of use.

Edit: That sentence run-on is brutal, but I'm hung over so it stays as is

 

[aerial7]

While this gets cluttered if we have skeumorphic UI like here, it can be a paradigm that works. Even two blocks side by side would do wonders.

This is also why I much prefer computer-based editing....and why I think the future of all modelers is to support only basic editing on-device.

It's also why I keep day-dreaming of a box full of rotary encoders, perhaps with scribble strips....where I can set it up how I prefer. Maybe an 8x8 grid where I can edit parms of 8 blocks at a time -- that should be cover a lot of ground. It'd be like tweaking a rig except that ALL of the knobs are in one place -- no reaching for the amp or bending down for the pedal-board....

Regardless, this is all just half-baked ideas; what's really needed is for bonafide, certified, card-carrying UX Designers to study all the Use Cases and come up with something coherent. Until then, it's the same as anything else: products sort of come and go with their own mix of ideas and conventional group-think....

[All that said, I spent some time away from the FM9 today just to play again with Blue Cat's Axiom...and I have to say that's always fun because it's full of good and interesting UI ideas.....]

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Only if those Ands come in an accessible package.

 

[luckymethod]

Inspired by Laxu's post.

Are you tired of 1000s of models?
Downsizing to something smaller/simpler?
Going back to amps?
Purging all modelers?
Was it just GAS that passed?
You've grown to hate modelers?
Ain't nobody got time for that?
How's your back?

Discuss

No but I don't care about new amps anymore at this point. Could do with more whacky effects and more powerful modifiers, I like synth sounds and would like to make more blips and boops with my Axe. Currency use Axe, Boss SY400 and HX stomp to achieve some sounds that I would rather get from the axe alone for convenience.

 

[laxu]

No but I don't care about new amps anymore at this point. Could do with more whacky effects and more powerful modifiers, I like synth sounds and would like to make more blips and boops with my Axe. Currency use Axe, Boss SY400 and HX stomp to achieve some sounds that I would rather get from the axe alone for convenience.

I don't think Fractal's effects get enough credit to be honest. There's some really fine reverbs and delays there. Yet so many of the wish list requests are more amps, amps, amps.

I think making the Synth block more powerful would be cool. Let me send MIDI notes to play it with a keyboard!

 

[luckymethod]

I don't think Fractal's effects get enough credit to be honest. There's some really fine reverbs and delays there. Yet so many of the wish list requests are more amps, amps, amps.

I think making the Synth block more powerful would be cool. Let me send MIDI notes to play it with a keyboard!

The effects are great but they are limited in areas like granular delays and the mentioned synth blocks.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I think there's one thing that they haven't nailed yet. I can't use a modeler like my pedalboard: free-form experimentation with sounds. It doesn't support a "what if I turn this and this, then this and this on another pedal" approach which takes a few seconds on pedals with dedicated knobs to find new sounds, or go from bad ones to better ones. It is a lot of block clicking back-and-forth, virtual knob turning etc to do on any modeler.

Honestly, I think what would help the Fractal immensely would be something like Helix’s capacitive footswitches, where the second you touch the effect‘s footswitch (in stomp mode, obviously) it brings that up on-screen, and then you can twist the knobs to adjust on the fly. That would rule. Even if Cliff found a way to do that without new hardware, it’d be cool.

Speaking more in general now (not just to Laxu): For me, it took me awhile to realize modelers aren’t about using 300 different amps. I only need to worry about the amps that’d actually interest me IRL, which are going to be yes, a handful of Mesas, and maybe a Marshall here and there. And of course, the @2112 -approved Band Commander, which is objectively the finest clean platform amp on the Fractal.

The only reason that there are so many amps on these devices is because my handful is different than your handful, which is different than their handful. Same goes for effects, IR’s, whatever. I don’t sound anything like @gdhi11, even though we have spent a lot of time playing through guitars, amps, effects etc together IRL, and he requires a totally different set of tools that all reside on the FM9 than I do. Sure, there’s overlap. But even with he same basic models, we do things differently. The FM9 allows us to do that, and be unique, all within the confines of the same device.

 

[TubeStack]

I find modelers endlessly interesting and they always get my curiosity going, but it's pretty much guaranteed I will always go back to my tube amp and use the modeler for effects in 4cm or the loop. For my playing purposes, which is in a loud rock band with a bass player using a tube bass head and 1x15+2x10 cab, and a drummer with a big, loud drum kit, you just can't beat a high-power tube head and 2x12 or 4x12 cab.

One day they may solve the modelling power amp situation and change that, but for now, big tube heads rule in the loud, old school rehearsal room. At gigs, where the volume is reduced, maybe a ss power amp + cab could be as much fun... I'll likely try it someday with my QC and ISP Stealth Pro, now that I have Electra Dyne captures I'm happy with.

I think where modellers excel is when there are volume constraints or when recording with a DAW, using studio monitors, etc. Or a band playing on a big stage where they don't even hear their actual amps and are using IEMs and everything's direct to FOH.

 

[Mongillo19]

use the modeler for effects in 4cm or the loop

I'm all for using what you love but curious why something as expensive and lacking in the effects department would be the choice for 4cm in the QC

 

[laxu]

The only reason that there are so many amps on these devices is because my handful is different than your handful, which is different than their handful. Same goes for effects, IR’s, whatever. I don’t sound anything like @gdhi11, even though we have spent a lot of time playing through guitars, amps, effects etc together IRL, and he requires a totally different set of tools that all reside on the FM9 than I do. Sure, there’s overlap. But even with he same basic models, we do things differently. The FM9 allows us to do that, and be unique, all within the confines of the same device.

At the same time we tend to adapt. Got a single channel amp you want to do clean and dirty? Roll down the volume on your guitar. Got a modeler without a 2203? You use something else to get in the same ballpark.

 

[TubeStack]

I'm all for using what you love but curious why something as expensive and lacking in the effects department would be the choice for 4cm in the QC

I actually bought the QC with no intention of using it for 4cm, just wanted to explore its capturing and amp models. The 4cm use was a happy side accident, spurred on by successfully capturing a couple of my favourite drive pedals that aren’t modelled anywhere.

However, now that I’m using it that way, overall the reasons would be:

- sound + feel in 4cm (QC has been great, better than L6, in my experience, equal to or only slightly less than FM9)

- size and weight (WAY better than FM9, in that regard)

- ease of use (also better than L6 and FM9)

- I have very basic effects needs, overall, and everything I use, I’ve liked the QC versions, with the exception of the Uni-Vibe

- again, as mentioned above, having captures of my Keeley Fuzz Head and MXR CBMOD is super appealing, don’t have to “make do” with trying similar models, etc, love those pedals and the captures are great

If Fractal made an FM6 or something similar in size to the QC, or their version of the HXFX, I’d be all over it, for sure.

 

[Mooselake]

For everyday use I'm 100% happy with my modeling device (Helix LT). Don't see that ever changing unless I switch modeling devices.

Never liked plugins except for very occasional reamping. Have many plugins but seem to always go back to Helix Native.

I have one "real" amp. It scratches the itch to occasionally shake some window panes. It's got a built in reactive load and IR loading, so I can bring it into my main modeling setup very easily.

Life is good.