Modelers Losing Their Luster

[ian_dissonance]

I went to modelers because I was sick of amps and cabs. Guitar speakers are so different room to room compared to a decent "FRFR" and I was always annoyed with having to adjust my settings from something glorious in the rehearsal room that sounded like boxy shit in lots of venues. That and the wide range of abilities you find in small venue FOH people along with moving to IEMs about 8-9 years ago meant taking the mic’ing and an extra lines out of the equation a great thing. I’ve been doing some form audio engineering almost as long as I’ve played guitar so I was ready for the differences between a traditional rig and a direct digital rig and the whole “Amp where I'm at” thing was never a problem. I’m also able to compartmentalize the option paralysis from setting up live tones versus recording. I know some people get these things and have some inherent need to touch every single control every time they turn the damn thing on and I can see how that would make a modeler a time trap. I probably edit my live patches once a year just to see if I’m feeling anything new, otherwise the global eq for the room is more than sufficient. I would probably only go back to an amp rig if I was getting paid decent money to play someone else’s music and the band required it for aesthetic purposes.

 

[Frodebro]

It'll be interesting to see how things pan out for you when/if you get to the gigging point. Gigs and my inability to blend in with our other guitarist's amp based rig were what pushed me back to a traditional amp in the mix.

The other guitarist is in a second band that does the occasional winery/ brewery gig, and he really wants us to get out and play, too. The problem is that this band just isn’t ready, and I’ve struggled with diplomatically expressing this. I worked in a cover band with a house gig for four years straight (playing EVERY weekend) back in the nineties, and that band was tight as shit and able to go off in any direction on a whim without missing a beat. I know that I was spoiled by that, but this group just isn’t close to that level yet and needs more focused rehearsals to get there.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The other guitarist is in a second band that does the occasional winery/ brewery gig, and he really wants us to get out and play, too. The problem is that this band just isn’t ready, and I’ve struggled with diplomatically expressing this. I worked in a cover band with a house gig for four years straight (playing EVERY weekend) back in the nineties, and that band was tight as shit and able to go off in any direction on a whim without missing a beat. I know that I was spoiled by that, but this group just isn’t close to that level yet and needs more focused rehearsals to get there.

I can see that. Toto and Steely Dan aren't something you just wing at a gig after 2 jam sessions.

 

[Rock Chalk]

More days than not, this is the extent of the rabbit hole for me with the Fractal.....just sayin'........

 

[kartikg3]

Our band plays gigs where we play Indian film music, and Indian film music is very diverse. You have elements from the different traditional musical styles of the different regions of India, like Carnatic, Hindustani, local folk, and elements of world music as well like blues, rock, jazz, metal. I need to be able to acoustic to classic rock crunch to heavy metal to soldano lead etc. between songs, and even within songs. I cannot imagine doing all that with an amp and a cab as easily as I could using a modeler and an "FRFR". Plus, the workflow, especially the kind that Helix provides makes everything a snap(shot)

 

[Foxmeister]

I think there's one thing that they haven't nailed yet. I can't use a modeler like my pedalboard: free-form experimentation with sounds. It doesn't support a "what if I turn this and this, then this and this on another pedal" approach which takes a few seconds on pedals with dedicated knobs to find new sounds, or go from bad ones to better ones. It is a lot of block clicking back-and-forth, virtual knob turning etc to do on any modeler.

I suggest that the BOSS ME-90 gets close to this experience, as does the Helix to a certain extent if the pedals are tied to a footswitch so you can select them with capacitive touch.

 

[JiveTurkey]

No luster = you're using Boss

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think software plug-ins will show us the way on this.

Personally, I absolutely don't think so. Having to permanently grab the mouse is such an annoying thing. Physical knobs are a difference like night and day for me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I suggest that the BOSS ME-90 gets close to this experience

As they are no endless encoders, you need to move all of them once to get you into WYSIWYG-no-parameter-jump territory.

as does the Helix to a certain extent if the pedals are tied to a footswitch so you can select them with capacitive touch.

The Helix really isn't bad, but it's still a loooong way to compete with analog pedals (the awkward parameter order adds to that).

 

[Frodebro]

I can see that. Toto and Steely Dan aren't something you just wing at a gig after 2 jam sessions.

No, but I do love that I’m learning songs that have never been a consideration before, definitely not in my normal wheelhouse. We’re also doing Lido Shuffle, which is a lot of fun. I’m doing the harmony parts (on guitar) for the keyboard solo/instrumental bit in the middle, and that forced me to really work on my hybrid picking chops.

 

[metropolis_4]

I have a love/hate relationship with modelers.

I go through phases where I feel inspired by having as many options available as possible. I love them in this phase.

Then I start to feel burned out by options and inspired by simplicity/lack of options. I hate them in this phase.

Tube amps still feel and sound a lot better to me, and appeal to me when I want simplicity, but then feel too limiting when I need options/versatility.

So I’m kind of trapped between the two.

 

[metropolis_4]

I‘m the only one in this group with a digital rig. The other guitarist is running a traditional, small pedalboard into an AC-15. We also have a keyboard player, so we’re doing a lot of stuff that standard two guitar bands don’t. Steely Dan, Toto, Tears For Fears, we’re all over the place.

The keyboardist and I are both running into a pair of EV 15” monitors (stereo), and I can get the thumps going through those pretty well.

Bands with keyboards are the best. Sounds like a lot of fun!

 

[Tanax]

Had the AxeFX 2. Sounded amazing, but caused me to almost stop playing guitar since it was such a terrible UX and just in general, fiddling with a computer editor (or worse, the onboard editing capabilities) just killed my creativity.

Got back into real amps and it's so much simpler.
Mind you, I'm not old nor hate technology, quite the opposite. I'm in my 30s and work as a system engineer and love technology. But in this case, that type of workflow did NOT work for me.

AxeFX 3 didn't change anything so I never jumped onto that train.

Holding my hope that AxeFX 4 improves UX.
Until then, I'm continuing with amps instead!

 

[Enchilada Jones]

For a number of years I was acting as the gear slut version of Aunty Entity running a gear Thunderdome where ‘two choices enter and one survives’.

I’d compare the modeler to my amps, usually a Plexi clone and sometimes a Vox variant and always a tweed deluxe. And compare modeler to modeler based on memory because I had to sell one to buy another. Not effective and FOMO is a real bitch.

By the time AxeFx Ultra became AxeII I thought the amps were overpriced space hogs. As soon as I sold them off I missed them and started the parallel mission of saving up enough to sneak them, one at a time, back into my ‘next modeler’ fund.

started making enough money to afford collecting all the top tier modelers ‘So I can properly A/B compare and then sell off the losers instead of relying on memory to determine if the newest Fractal really had the best Deluxe Reverb etc. or not‘.

Problem is I realized the strengths and weaknesses of those top devices are a mixed bag of positives and negative. So I’ve got a bunch of expensive gear that, individual pieces, get played through very little.

So now my obsession is reduce the size of the pieces and the size of the collection.
With the Ox Stomp and a Strymon Volante for the backend, for example, a couple of quality preamp or amp in a box pedals can replace 95% of what the modelers contribute to my actual playing time and will reduce the time wasted to using them not playing music with them. Fractal FM9, Kemper Stage, Helix Floor could all go away and I’d probably be better off.

This new attitude is also aided by the TwoNotes Captor X which showed me the pairing of a Friedman Little Sister head and the Captor X was never dethroned by any modeler that went into Thunderdome to challenge them. That is 75% of my go to sound covered right there.
Now I have the UA Ruby, UA Dream ‘65, UA Woodrow, they can cover 24 of the remaining 25%. Into the Fryette lxII power amp they are a ‘big boy’ stereo versions of themselves and solo into DAW they are equally impressive and oh so convenient.

So for modelers I’ll likely keep the Helix floor ( it has survived since its arrival in 2015) because it is so damn good in so many ways beyond its modeling capability. And keep HX Effects for 4CM duty.

incoming is the Soldano Astro 20 because, why not?

There is no right answer in this quest, only discovery itself.

 

[Frodebro]

I have a love/hate relationship with modelers.

I go through phases where I feel inspired by having as many options available as possible. I love them in this phase.

Then I start to feel burned out by options and inspired by simplicity/lack of options. I hate them in this phase.

Tube amps still feel and sound a lot better to me, and appeal to me when I want simplicity, but then feel too limiting when I need options/versatility.

So I’m kind of trapped between the two.

I bounce back and forth as well. That’s why I have an Origin 20 combo with a very basic (OD, distortion, delay, reverb) pedalboard in my living room. I have experimented with a “bare bones” approach with the band (have brought just my Mark V and just my Triple Crown to rehearsals with zero effects) and that is both liberating and highly limiting at the same time. One time I brought just my PRS HDRX 20 head and 1x12, which means one channel and riding the volume knob to get “clean” sounds. That would work great if we were only doing classic rock stuff, but we’re not.

 

[Frodebro]

Bands with keyboards are the best. Sounds like a lot of fun!

It is. I was so burned out when the gigging band broke up in 1998 that I packed up everything and didn’t touch a guitar for a couple of years. I’m sure you know that feeling, when it stops being fun and just becomes work.

 

[dk_ace]

As they The Helix really isn't bad, but it's still a loooong way to compete with analog pedals (the awkward parameter order adds to that).

I left an axe-fx to build a pedaltrain terra sized pedal rig because I wanted the knobs again for this. I then picked up a Helix a few years later. IMO, the Helix has nowhere to go it’s already there. The encoders and capacitive switches give that easy experimentation and live changes.

I get your constantly repeated bit about you wishing the parameters were in different orders. Funny thing is with my massive pedal board I never complained about the order of the knobs on a given pedal, I just learned where they were and knew how to use them, same as I do with the stuff in my main helix patch.

D

 

[Frodebro]

I get your constantly repeated bit about you wishing the parameters were in different orders. Funny thing is with my massive pedal board I never complained about the order of the knobs on a given pedal, I just learned where they were and knew how to use them, same as I do with the stuff in my main helix patch.

D

I‘m pretty much the same way. People have been complaining about the Fractal UI since day one, but I just took the time to learn it and it doesn’t bother me at all. Learning my way around Logic Pro resulted in a LOT more frustration than the Fractal UI ever did.

 

[dk_ace]

I‘m pretty much the same way. People have been complaining about the Fractal UI since day one, but I just took the time to learn it and it doesn’t bother me at all. Learning my way around Logic Pro resulted in a LOT more frustration than the Fractal UI ever did.

Easy, tiger…. The original Axe UI was not experimentation or live gig friendly by a long shot, a pedalboard was vastly superior to that. Helix on the other hand is IMO just as good as the pedalboard.

I can’t comment yet on the current Fractal units in this regard. I had an FM3 for a minute but I never gigged with it. Will probably be purchasing an FM9 soon. It looks like it’s better now, but without capacitive foot switches it can’t be as live gig and experimentation friendly as the Helix. It is what it is, I’m willing to make that tradeoff for the instant switching, more dsp, and more footswitching capabilities. Scene controllers set to smart things for the encoders will work for common live gig needs, but not really the same as what a Helix does. It’s enough to get by but it’s not like having a pedalboard with knobs everywhere or a Helix.

D

 

[ericbr1]

Easy, tiger…. The original Axe UI was not experimentation or live gig friendly by a long shot, a pedalboard was vastly superior to that. Helix on the other hand is IMO just as good as the pedalboard.

I can’t comment yet on the current Fractal units in this regard. I had an FM3 for a minute but I never gigged with it. Will probably be purchasing an FM9 soon. It looks like it’s better now, but without capacitive foot switches it can’t be as live gig and experimentation friendly as the Helix. It is what it is, I’m willing to make that tradeoff for the instant switching, more dsp, and more footswitching capabilities. Scene controllers set to smart things for the encoders will work for common live gig needs, but not really the same as what a Helix does. It’s enough to get by but it’s not like having a pedalboard with knobs everywhere or a Helix.

D

I had the Axe-Fx 1, their 1st release, and had absolutely NO problem navigating on that. Had it many years and sold it when I got the AX8. Again , zero problem programming all my own patches. So meanwhile, I hadn't used the Ax8 in years, and just this week started getting back to playing with it, and now it's become cumbersome, basically starting from scratch . Anyway, within a few more days it should be 'old hat' again until I set it down for a few more years. lol... When I got the 1st Axe-Fx and everyone was saying how difficult the UI was , I just laughed as I had all the Ensoniq rack gear in my studio and it was way more difficult! Just like anything after someone uses it awhile hopefully they can figure it out. (or not!)

Eric