Fractal Talk

dk_ace said:
Posting here so that I don’t piss on the stadium thread…

I spent a few hours with helix again Sunday. The amp sounds I used were the newer ones, and they were good. Totally enjoyed them and would be happy with them. I know I like some of the mod sounds in there and the delays have always been solid, didn’t bother with them.

So I went over to the reverb which has long been my hang up with helix. Subtle stuff was fine, decent spring sounds available, then I went looking for an ambient reverb I liked…. It just isn’t in this box. There’s some usable stuff for sure, but nothing I really enjoy.

Fired up the fm9 with a commitment to run a similar experiment entirely from the hardware like I did with helix. It just rips. The amps sound killer with minimal tweaking, the reverbs are killer and with minimal tweaking I can find something that will make me really happy.

The hardware UI is more workable than I gave it credit for. It isn’t intuitive, it isn’t easy to remember where certain things are, the knobs and buttons don’t do what they probably should, but I could get around on it well enough and do all the things I needed to once I committed to it. It isn’t great, but it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was either after spending some more time with it.

Interesting thing is that while the hardware on helix is faster and more fun (less frustrating) to navigate, I felt like it ultimately took more time to dial in something like the reverbs where the algorithms aren’t as good. The hardware ui is clunkier on FM9, but the algorithms are better and it ultimately took less time and effort to get sounds I wanted on the hardware than it did with helix.

If they improve things over time in the effects algorithms, which I’m sure they will, and fractal doesn’t leapfrog them with UI improvements, I’ll probably end up checking out a stadium at some point. That point is a long ways out though probably as the difference in sonics is too far apart for me right now and I don’t think that gap will close any time soon.

The results of all this - I’m sticking with fractal for the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...

You like what you like! I think the FM9 amps and reverbs sound amazing, and there are several playgrounds worth of sounds to enjoy.

The hang-up for me - even after owning it for close to two years - is that I could only really enjoy all of that depth if I was using Leon Todd presets/programming, factory presets or had set it up on my computer ahead of time.

So I've been doing a lot of composition/production/songwriting work with my group this year. Time and time again, I'd mess around with the Fractal esoteric factory presets (Pretty much anything after the first 100 or so), and I'd find something inspiring and cool. Then, when we started to use it as a band and I had to accomodate other instruments in the mix, it would need serious tweaking to fit. Or maybe I'd need to speed it up to fit a perkier tempo...whatever. And I often felt powerless to make what worked for me in isolation adapt and thrive to wherever we wanted it to go as a band. I could spam the Edit button until I got to the block I thought might make it work. But aside from the Mix parameter to make it drier or wetter, I didn't feel confident changing much else.

So I had a number of instances where I found something cool and got started with it, then had to abandon it and try something else much less cool, but more immediately controllable.

That was always my only real stumbling block with FM9. And I never got more comfortable with it.

I swung back to Helix in a big way when Stadium was announced because I was curious if I was just getting swept up in hype to purchase the XL. And I came to the same conclusions after extensive A/B with my FM9 about the amp sounds. They're there already, especially with anything added after firmware 3.0. Pretty much everything I wanted to replicate from my FM9...I could.

Like you, I love ambient reverbs, and I think the Dynamic Plate and Dynamic Hall give you all of that and more. With the Damping and Decay parameters turned up, you can get as cloudy and pad-like as you want. And with the wealth of cool delays and mods you put on a parallel path, you can make a lot of fun variants too.

But I totally respect anyone who feels like they can't get the effects or amp sounds they want from Line 6. No platform is for everybody. I think the FM9 would be ideal for a lot of people, but the usability thing only became a more acute pain as I owned it, while the sonic gap shrunk and continues to with Line 6.

If Cliff were doing anything to address the on-unit usability, I very well might have stayed. But it seems like that's frozen in amber, and there are zero plans to address it. That really bums me out.
 
mikah912 said:
If Cliff were doing anything to address the on-unit usability, I very well might have stayed. But it seems like that's frozen in amber, and there are zero plans to address it. That really bums me out.
Click to expand...

I think with VP4, they did address it and i love it for that. Definitely easier and friendlier to get around on compared to the others and who knows, maybe that is the way they will go for future stuff.
 
- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ - said:
I think with VP4, they did address it and i love it for that. Definitely easier and friendlier to get around on compared to the others and who knows, maybe that is the way they will go for future stuff.
Click to expand...

A separate virtual pedalboard hardware SKU doesn't have any benefits for me as a current FM9 owner, sadly.

And a key clue - to me - to what their future multifx hardware will look like to me is the response that they have to quality of life improvements on their current wishlist forum for their current hardware.

And that response is......utter silence.
 
It’ll be interesting to see what the next AxeFX looks like. I’ve said it before, but I’m not convinced Fractal is dying to expand their customer base, particularly by way of making the platform simpler to use. If anything, I’d expect them to move along Eventide’s route of offering pedals that are a bit more consumer-friendly while the rack gear retains it’s place in the pro-studio/sound engineer world.
 
DrewJD82 said:
It’ll be interesting to see what the next AxeFX looks like. I’ve said it before, but I’m not convinced Fractal is dying to expand their customer base, particularly by way of making the platform simpler to use. If anything, I’d expect them to move along Eventide’s route of offering pedals that are a bit more consumer-friendly while the rack gear retains it’s place in the pro-studio/sound engineer world.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can't see them releasing a whole new generation just to update UI. I feel like their would have to be a bottleneck somewhere with what Cliff wants to do from a modeling standpoint that the current generation (more specifically the III) couldn't handle.

I guess it gets a little tricky depending on how much more the III will be able to handle. At what point would the difference between these capabilities of the III outpace the FM9 and FM3 to where a new line would be needed?

Regardless, I'll be slapping down my name for a IV.
 
DrewJD82 said:
It’ll be interesting to see what the next AxeFX looks like. I’ve said it before, but I’m not convinced Fractal is dying to expand their customer base, particularly by way of making the platform simpler to use. If anything, I’d expect them to move along Eventide’s route of offering pedals that are a bit more consumer-friendly while the rack gear retains it’s place in the pro-studio/sound engineer world.
Click to expand...
IMO they should embrace the Axe-Edit for their rack unit and make the actual physical hardware smaller with just a bare minimum front panel for seeing levels, preset/scene names, knobs for output levels and so on. There's a lot of empty space in the Axe-Fx 3 because the front panel requires the 3U size. Just make it proper studio/backstage live gear.

Floor units are a much tougher one. The expectation here has grown a lot over the past few years when even the lower price ranges offers touchscreens and frankly pretty stellar modeling for the money. I expect the FM3/FM9 outsell the Axe-Fx 3 by a big margin, so not having a modern unit in this category, while likely having higher cost than the competition, is not good.
 
I predict/hope that next gen units from all brands will focus more on features and usability over sound quality. I just don't think it's possible for amp modeling to get that much better from here on out so I figure you might as well focus on *everything else*.

I'd love to see an Axe-FX IV that's more like a "band hub" that houses amp modeling for all band members, has mic preamps and ample routing for IEMs. Basically smash an Axe-FX III and a Behringturd XR18 together. Have one big ass unit that does the job of several units from yesteryear. Let bands downsize and streamline their live rigs while sacrificing nothing. A boy can dream.

Edit: Just realized that the form autocorrects the brand name Beh rin ger to Behringturd. That's hillarious.
 
mikah912 said:
You like what you like! I think the FM9 amps and reverbs sound amazing, and there are several playgrounds worth of sounds to enjoy.

The hang-up for me - even after owning it for close to two years - is that I could only really enjoy all of that depth if I was using Leon Todd presets/programming, factory presets or had set it up on my computer ahead of time.

So I've been doing a lot of composition/production/songwriting work with my group this year. Time and time again, I'd mess around with the Fractal esoteric factory presets (Pretty much anything after the first 100 or so), and I'd find something inspiring and cool. Then, when we started to use it as a band and I had to accomodate other instruments in the mix, it would need serious tweaking to fit. Or maybe I'd need to speed it up to fit a perkier tempo...whatever. And I often felt powerless to make what worked for me in isolation adapt and thrive to wherever we wanted it to go as a band. I could spam the Edit button until I got to the block I thought might make it work. But aside from the Mix parameter to make it drier or wetter, I didn't feel confident changing much else.

So I had a number of instances where I found something cool and got started with it, then had to abandon it and try something else much less cool, but more immediately controllable.

That was always my only real stumbling block with FM9. And I never got more comfortable with it.

I swung back to Helix in a big way when Stadium was announced because I was curious if I was just getting swept up in hype to purchase the XL. And I came to the same conclusions after extensive A/B with my FM9 about the amp sounds. They're there already, especially with anything added after firmware 3.0. Pretty much everything I wanted to replicate from my FM9...I could.

Like you, I love ambient reverbs, and I think the Dynamic Plate and Dynamic Hall give you all of that and more. With the Damping and Decay parameters turned up, you can get as cloudy and pad-like as you want. And with the wealth of cool delays and mods you put on a parallel path, you can make a lot of fun variants too.

But I totally respect anyone who feels like they can't get the effects or amp sounds they want from Line 6. No platform is for everybody. I think the FM9 would be ideal for a lot of people, but the usability thing only became a more acute pain as I owned it, while the sonic gap shrunk and continues to with Line 6.

If Cliff were doing anything to address the on-unit usability, I very well might have stayed. But it seems like that's frozen in amber, and there are zero plans to address it. That really bums me out.
Click to expand...

I don’t think I’ve ever used a factory preset, and I haven’t bought anything from someone else to use. So I can’t really relate. I’ve always just made my own sounds. Occasionally I’ve lifted an idea from someone else’s patch, but that’s pretty rare and I haven’t ever grabbed something that I couldn’t shift where I wanted it to go.

If you’re grabbing something uber complex like some of the really esoteric sound design stuff that’s using tons of blocks to make one weird sound, I could see that being an issue. That’s gonna happen with any device though. I’ve always thought those sounds were interesting but they aren’t something I ever need.

To clarify on the reverb sounds, it’s not that I can’t pull them out of helix - it’s that the unit simply isn’t capable of the sounds I’m looking for. I can get a semi approximation that would get through a gig, but some of the reverb sounds I really like just cannot be created by the helix models. It’s not a user thing, I can pull those sounds out of a mercury 7, a Ventris (with some deep editing), or the FM9 - all without much work at all. The helix algorithms just have some fundamental design choices that stop them from being capable of what I want. It isn’t for a lack of trying or capability on my part.

The amps, I think Helix is great especially the best of the newer models. Would have zero issues using them for everything I do.

D
 
The other thing that keeps me in fractal verse is the instant preset switching. That is epicly useful for live stuff. I got used to forcing everything into one preset per song in helix to avoid issues with the gaps in preset switching. It’s so nice not being limited by that. One of those things that is hard to go without once you’ve become used to having it.

D
 
dk_ace said:
I don’t think I’ve ever used a factory preset, and I haven’t bought anything from someone else to use. So I can’t really relate. I’ve always just made my own sounds. Occasionally I’ve lifted an idea from someone else’s patch, but that’s pretty rare and I haven’t ever grabbed something that I couldn’t shift where I wanted it to go.

If you’re grabbing something uber complex like some of the really esoteric sound design stuff that’s using tons of blocks to make one weird sound, I could see that being an issue. That’s gonna happen with any device though. I’ve always thought those sounds were interesting but they aren’t something I ever need.

To clarify on the reverb sounds, it’s not that I can’t pull them out of helix - it’s that the unit simply isn’t capable of the sounds I’m looking for. I can get a semi approximation that would get through a gig, but some of the reverb sounds I really like just cannot be created by the helix models. It’s not a user thing, I can pull those sounds out of a mercury 7, a Ventris (with some deep editing), or the FM9 - all without much work at all. The helix algorithms just have some fundamental design choices that stop them from being capable of what I want. It isn’t for a lack of trying or capability on my part.

The amps, I think Helix is great especially the best of the newer models. Would have zero issues using them for everything I do.

D
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was ONLY referring to the Fractal factory patches that are sound design-y and super esoteric. I've been doing some scoring gigs as well as electronic based projects in the past year or so. They've been clutch, but when playing with a whole ensemble.. It's tough to adjust them to fit or tweak them if we go in a different direction tempo wise.

I can't speak to your reverb tastes just like you cannot speak to mine. Most certainly, if you have a very specific thing in mind and your hardware isn't doing it for you, there's really no reason to stick by it. I am a huge fan of Fractal's cloud reverbs, but I think I've matched those pretty much in Helix. The Mercury 7 stuff with a lot of Doppler pitch shifting making notes drop/rise and whatever else isn't my particular cup of tea.
 
dk_ace said:
The other thing that keeps me in fractal verse is the instant preset switching. That is epicly useful for live stuff. I got used to forcing everything into one preset per song in helix to avoid issues with the gaps in preset switching. It’s so nice not being limited by that. One of those things that is hard to go without once you’ve become used to having it.

D
Click to expand...

We definitely have different perspectives on this. I find preset jumping within a song live to be a nightmare on pretty much any unit. I prefer snapshots or scenes that give me the same amps at the same volumes with the same type of EQ, and then let me drop effects and slight knob tweaks in and out from there.

I do bug DI about adding more than eight snapshots to the stadium, but honestly keeping track of that many foot presses within one song is a little overwhelming for me. I do not like to tap dance when I'm trying to concentrate on playing guitar, locking into my bandmates and also feeling the audience.
 

GUITAR QUICKIE THREE "KIESEL TIM MILLER M6 AND FRACTAL AUDIO FM9"​


Signal Path: Kiesel Tim Miller M6 Guitar - Fractal Audio Synth Block - Fractal Audio Friedman HBE V3 Amp / Cab - Fractal Audio Stereo Tape Delay.

Need another pitch type block? The synth block has you covered. It may be monophonic but it works great as an octave and harmonizer effect.

 
Yes it took a while for Fractal to get there - but when they did :chef those reverbs are something else. Very musical.

Also the tools provided, modifiers, advanced settings, filters, LFOs etc available meant I was basically able to clone the Keeley Halo very very closely, down to the LFO phases, amplitudes, feedback network, filtering, etc - It's one of my favorite delay sounds (see https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/keeley-halo-take-2.185495/)
 
Last edited:
AlbertA said:
Also the tools provided, modifiers, advanced settings, filters, LFOs etc available meant I was basically able to clone the Keeley Halo very very closely, down to the LFO phases, amplitudes, feedback network, filtering, etc - It's one of my favorite delay sounds (see https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/keeley-halo-take-2.185495/)
Click to expand...
This was one of my favorite "let's go deep and make this happen" threads of all time on the forum. Getting that boost from Robert Keeley himself on how the pedal was architected was just an extra bit of awesome.
 
mikah912 said:
Yeah, I was ONLY referring to the Fractal factory patches that are sound design-y and super esoteric. I've been doing some scoring gigs as well as electronic based projects in the past year or so. They've been clutch, but when playing with a whole ensemble.. It's tough to adjust them to fit or tweak them if we go in a different direction tempo wise.

I can't speak to your reverb tastes just like you cannot speak to mine. Most certainly, if you have a very specific thing in mind and your hardware isn't doing it for you, there's really no reason to stick by it. I am a huge fan of Fractal's cloud reverbs, but I think I've matched those pretty much in Helix. The Mercury 7 stuff with a lot of Doppler pitch shifting making notes drop/rise and whatever else isn't my particular cup of tea.
Click to expand...

I figured you were talking about the wild presets. It would take some doing to figure out how to manipulate those into something else.

I can’t understand how anyone could think that helix has matched the fractal cloud verbs. I could get an approximation of them, but it takes a parallel path with the vowel effect filter and some other tricks (Cordy figured out the vowel thing, I can’t take any credit for that but it works). There’s no single model that comes close to that sound in helix. I don’t really use the cloud verbs much though. I can’t remember what effect types my two favorites use as a base. Basically, they are my two favorite Mercury 7 sounds that I copied and improved in Ventris and then copied and improved again in Fractal.

My time the other day on the hardware was simpler though. I didn’t try to deep edit and get the perfect thing in my head, I was just looking for really good stuff from the hardware that I could get running quickly. I went through like 8 helix models and did a lot of knob twiddling looking for a good ambient verb. Got nothing I really liked. In FM9, I set it in parallel and put the level about where I wanted, and then started trying effects types and 3 out of 5 were exciting right out of the gate. Select the type, adjust the decay and level, and go.

That isn’t to say all the helix reverbs are garbage. I like the studio spring and 63 spring, cave has a certain charm to it, dynamic ambience is cool, dynamic plate is good for some things, etc.

D
 
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