Fractal Talk

[laxu]

I think the thing to bear in mind is, he says "all these other products" so trying to twist it like he singled out the Helix Stadium is - imho - dishonest.

And the real context for the comment is along the lines of locker talk. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, or as an official perspective or position from Cliff nor Fractal. If I or Laxu or Timbuckwhatever had said it, nobody would've given it a single thought.

The exact reason why people love how Digital Igloo interacts with the community, is exactly the same reason why Cliff shouldn't be held to these ridiculous standards, where everything he says is vetted and opined upon by sewing circle fuckwits (present company excepted of course!) who wouldn't know the first thing about designing a product or what it takes to bring something to market.

I want CEO's to talk like real people. I don't want them living in ivory towers, thinking they're better than the proles, and thus the proles thinking they're better than them by extension. He's just a dude with opinions, with ego, with everything that makes a human a human.

Fractal is a lot more centered around Cliff so what he says does carry more weight than if one of the other Fractal employees had said that. I do prefer that over e.g Universal Audio's "We can't discuss anything" approach or other corporate bullshit.

IMO the original comment skirts around calling the HX Stadium "a Game Boy" by saying "those other products" but it's definitely a bit of a "appease the Fractal mob" comment considering how much discussion the HX Stadium generated on Fractal's own forum.

If anything, the HX Stadium should light a fire under Fractal's ass to think of new workflows, how to make things easier for users to work with their gear and how to stay on top when cheaper modelers are getting better every year.

 

[Orvillain]

If anything, the HX Stadium should light a fire under Fractal's ass to think of new workflows, how to make things easier for users to work with their gear and how to stay on top when cheaper modelers are getting better every year.

I agree with this bit. There's decisions made on Fractal kit that lead me to believe that the vast majority of people using them are using them connected to computers. Which is absolutely fine if you want to work that way. I do sometimes. But other times, I don't want to have to faff around with a screen, or a keyboard and mouse, or get distracted by tech at all.

So we're half way through figuring out a 13minute epic proggy-as-fuck song with the band, and last night we got the first 5 minutes solved; the constant back and forth, trial and error process of going through each riff and deciding how many times it loops, etc etc. There's absolutely no way a computer belongs in that sort of environment. It needs to be amps, guitars, and simple as fuck pedals with a few knobs that I can quickly turn.

I can't use my Axe FX III with my band. It is too techy. I can use the Helix a lot faster and easier, but still nowhere near as fast as slapping a DD variant and a RV variant on a board and calling it done.

 

[James Freeman]

I don't think this is true. Helix has use some amount of schematic and component based modelling since day 1. Stadium just expands on the concept and adds more detail.

Maybe but since Line 6 could not implement/fix a simple RC network (ie. bright cap on a pot), I have to assume that they did not model the RC network at all but interpolated between measured curves, same with the tonestack, and if simple RC networks were not calculated in real-time I would have to assume nothing else was.
Helix tube stages were at their core waveform shapers with some dynamic dependencies like sag, I doubt the triode stages were affected by the RC networks at their terminals.
It is just my personal speculations regarding the old Helix modeling tech.
I sure hope Line 6 moved to real-time network solvers with the Agoura like Fractal did a long time ago.

 

[laxu]

I agree with this bit. There's decisions made on Fractal kit that lead me to believe that the vast majority of people using them are using them connected to computers. Which is absolutely fine if you want to work that way. I do sometimes. But other times, I don't want to have to faff around with a screen, or a keyboard and mouse, or get distracted by tech at all.

So we're half way through figuring out a 13minute epic proggy-as-fuck song with the band, and last night we got the first 5 minutes solved; the constant back and forth, trial and error process of going through each riff and deciding how many times it loops, etc etc. There's absolutely no way a computer belongs in that sort of environment. It needs to be amps, guitars, and simple as fuck pedals with a few knobs that I can quickly turn.

I can't use my Axe FX III with my band. It is too techy. I can use the Helix a lot faster and easier, but still nowhere near as fast as slapping a DD variant and a RV variant on a board and calling it done.

Totally agree. I see there's a few different schools for using modelers:

1. "Program everything beforehand, adjust minimally on stage." Perform view is probably good enough.
2. "I just use it in the studio so while I have my DAW open". Then it's practical to use Axe-Edit on a computer as everything is right there on screen.
3. "I have my base sound set up so it works mostly like a traditional pedalboard loop switcher or tap dancing system". Again, next to no adjustments done.
4. "I want to be able to experiment on the fly". This is where most modelers fail big time, and it's very much the scenario you describe.

I like to play mad scientist with my gear, that's how you find interesting things. Modelers can be frustrating for this when just getting to different effects is not that quick. I always see the "Well I can use my Fractal front panel just fine" as a rebuke to usability complaints, but the issue is that it's not fast.

I want to get to any block quickly, and switch between them so I can set up those crazy fx combinations or something. On pedals this is literally just moving your hands between knobs. On modelers without touchscreens it's often a huge chore of having to go back and forth between views, page around, finally find the knob and then move your hand to the knobs underneath the display. On Fractal I often just used the big knob because it was faster than trying to use the cramped knobs under the screen. Ultimately I gave up on using the front panel at all and just used the editor.

Helix was ahead of the pack with its capacitive footswitches, but I hated having to sit down on the floor to work with it because bending down for longer to adjust stuff aggravates my hietal hernia. I mean who doesn't want to feel like vomiting when they adjust their gear? I tried putting the Helix Floor on a desk but the sheer size of the unit made things difficult as now I had to reach over a whole pile of footswitches. Quad Cortex and Hotone Ampero 2 are far more pleasant experiences. I almost never use the computer editor on the Hotone because despite having only 3 encoders, the touchscreen makes selecting things pretty fast. HX Stadium looks like it will be wonderful with its 8 knobs + touchscreen.

 

[Orvillain]

hietal hernia

Ugh. Yeah, I have that too. It fucking sucks. I went a year choking on food, secretly thinking I had some savage cancer or something. Nah, was just a hiatal hernia. 4cm.

 

[yek]

Me too. Pantoprazol solves it.

 

[Orvillain]

Me too. Pantoprazol solves it.

I did do a couple of courses of omeprazole. Didn't do very much. My issues are mechanical rather than just down to acid I think. I've got a narrowing of the oesophagus too (Schatzki ring lmao), which means it is very easy for me to choke on food.

I went to have an endoscopy a few years back, and because I was driving, I didn't want to be sedated. Big mistake. I couldn't fight the sensation that I couldn't breathe, in their rush to remove the camera, they nicked or snapped something inside, because loads of blood came up the pipe. Quick saline solution to close the nick, and coughed out the left over blood, and I was ok.

And all my choking disappeared for about a year. So I'm guessing what happened was he broke the ring when pulling the camera out. So basically I have a future of 2-3 yearly dialations. Joy of fucking joys.

Getting old sucks balls.

 

[Orvillain]

WELCOME TO THE FRACTAL HEALTH UPDATE THREAD.

 

[mikah912]

If anything, the HX Stadium should light a fire under Fractal's ass to think of new workflows, how to make things easier for users to work with their gear and how to stay on top when cheaper modelers are getting better every year.

This is a key observation, and it was at the heart of the realization that made me comfortable moving on from my FM9, despite really liking the hell out of it.

To be clear, the FM9 is a fantastic-sounding and feeling piece of kit that gives you a smorgasbord of options. Additionally, it has some incredible usability that it doesn't get enough credit for in the form of:

• Channels
• Importable/Exportable Block library
• Axe-Edit

All great features, but unfortunately.....all pretty dang hard to leverage if you're not tethered to a laptop/PC. That leaves you with the on-unit UX, which I'm not going to relitigate here. We all know its shortcomings.

On the other side, all of their competition is working harder - either via improved modeling or profiling/capturing - to provide the same tier of quality amp tones Fractal is known for. That means they're getting a lot closer on the sound quality end, year after year, but Fractal user experience is frozen in amber, essentially. Even minor QoL suggestions on the current hardware get ignored in the Wishlist forum, while the amp/FX tweaks, new models and engine revamps just keep on coming.

And yes, Cliff's comment after the Stadium launch did nothing to give me confidence this would change.

I love Fractal. The Line 6 guys do too. Cliff demands respect for everything he's accomplished. But this is a real blindspot, and it will only increase in impact.

 

[Orvillain]

Cliff commands respect for everything he's accomplished

Slight tweak to that, because I don't think Cliff literally demands respect. But yeah, totally agreed with your post.

I'm pretty sure I will keep my VP4. Because OFMG it sounds amazing for certain things. But I'm not sure about my Axe FX III honestly. I think I'll shoot it out against Stadium XL when it eventually lands, and make a decision about whether to keep the Axe3.

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but so much of the Axe3 appeals to my glutinous nature. And out of all of the modellers, the hardware and the signal to noise ratio and the sound quality, is either leagues ahead... or a notch above, depending on what you compare to. It is definitely pole position in that respect, regardless.

But when it comes to just wanting to be inspired by kicking in a particular sound or effect, I just don't have that kind of experience with it. Usually my experience turns into an overly analytical, overly accountancy sort of experience. Which I am sometimes totally down with. But more often than not, it distracts me from my real purpose.

I guess another analogy I could make is comparing a Meris LVX to a Boss DD3. Both are cool. Both do great sounds. The LVX even does all of the sounds of the DD3. But the DD3 has a certain special thing going on that the LVX doesn't capture, and it is way easier to address physically. So even though I like both, at a push, I'd be more likely to use the DD3 than the LVX.

 

[laxu]

I did do a couple of courses of omeprazole. Didn't do very much. My issues are mechanical rather than just down to acid I think. I've got a narrowing of the oesophagus too (Schatzki ring lmao), which means it is very easy for me to choke on food.

I went to have an endoscopy a few years back, and because I was driving, I didn't want to be sedated. Big mistake. I couldn't fight the sensation that I couldn't breathe, in their rush to remove the camera, they nicked or snapped something inside, because loads of blood came up the pipe. Quick saline solution to close the nick, and coughed out the left over blood, and I was ok.

And all my choking disappeared for about a year. So I'm guessing what happened was he broke the ring when pulling the camera out. So basically I have a future of 2-3 yearly dialations. Joy of fucking joys.

Getting old sucks balls.

Ouch!

When I had an endoscopy they just numbed my throat for it. It still feels awful, and a bit humiliating having cameras stuffed down your throat and then your stomach filled up with air like a balloon.

At least for me it's mostly manageable. I sleep with a wedge pillow and that helps a lot, otherwise just try to avoid having to bend over for any longer length of time. Hence the need for desktop modelers and desk/top of cab pedalboards with remote control.

 

[DrewJD82]

I've got a narrowing of the oesophagus too

Didn’t I widen that out for you once before?

 

[CorrosiveMatter]

I went to have an endoscopy a few years back...

Getting old sucks balls.

Ouch!

When I had an endoscopy they just numbed my throat for it. It still feels awful, and a bit humiliating having cameras stuffed down your throat and then your stomach filled up with air like a balloon.

Been there and done that for issues but not the same as you both, I will only say diabetes will cause so much crap if you don't manage it and if anyone ever has questions about that, bug me but get that shit under control!!

Getting old sucks balls is 100% spot on.

Gut issues are the worst.

I can't bend over for even 2-3 minutes so even my anolog pedal board has to be up.

The only way the Stadium will have a chance of living on the floor like it should for me is if the editor has the ability to work by touch with whatever device it will work on so you can do everything on the editor that you could on the touch screen.

 

[DrewJD82]

Been there and done that for issues but not the same as you both, I will only say diabetes will cause so much crap if you don't manage it and if anyone ever has questions about that, bug me but get that shit under control!!

Getting old sucks balls is 100% spot on.

Gut issues are the worst.

I can't bend over for even 2-3 minutes so even my anolog pedal board has to be up.

The only way the Stadium will have a chance of living on the floor like it should for me is if the editor has the ability to work by touch with whatever device it will work on so you can do everything on the editor that you could on the touch screen.

I actually went to my doc this week to talk to him about the diabeetus. Both my parents are Type II and simply DGAF, they eat junk food nonstop. Despite me eating far more healthy than unhealthy, the last couple months I’ve been getting more tired than I anticipate after eating, even if it’s grilled chicken and vegetables. It’s intermittent, so it’s possible it’s just age/actually being tired, but I’m not taking any chances and want to know what my blood says.

At 43 I’m essentially crossing that point where resolving health issues with diet/exercise is going to be harder and harder and seeing what condition my family is in, I’m not leaving anything up to chance.

 

[- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ -]

If anything, the HX Stadium should light a fire under Fractal's ass to think of new workflows, how to make things easier for users to work with their gear

I think that is exactly what VP4 does! :)

 

[laxu]

I think that is exactly what VP4 does! :)

IMO it's still got many of the old Fractal issues, just simplified. I think they could have done much better with its design.

 

[Vic Winters]

I need that Fractal power supply!!!

Edit- I can't take anyone seriously if their first complaint when making a list of bullet points is "No bass presets". Buy a fuckin' profiler if you want shit provided for you.

While I'd definitely LOVE an Ampeg 8x10 DynaCab, I've managed to use exactly *1* bass preset for every single bass track I've recorded in the last 6 years, regardless of the genre or playing style.

Order of importance in a bass tone, IMO-

-The bass itself
-Your fingers
-Fresh strings
-Compression
-Cab
-Amp
-Not being a dipshit (this can actually be placed anywhere in the list)

This is what keeps me from investing in Fractal. The complete disdain for bass players.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I think they did great with streamlining the VP4. Only thing I can recall thinking that could have been done additionally was make the encoders under the screen clickable.

 

[Orvillain]

Didn’t I widen that out for you once before?

With what good sir?

 

[AlbertA]

With what good sir?