Fractal Talk

[yek]

Seriously though this is what I think is so cool about component modeling, and especially Fractal.

I travel a lot and need to pack light and small, so I got myself a Tonex One, as an temporary companion to the VP4.

While some stuff sounds pretty good (and it's cheap), the entire "snapshot" approach annoys me beyond endurance.
Having to plow through them and having to load them one by one, to see whether it works with your particular guitar, sigh ...
Plus, it doesn't help that trimming the input to avoid clipping directly affects amp gain.

In other words: Long Live Component Modeling!

There's only one thing that annoys me more (in this area), and that's the horrible Tonex software, which is a chaotic and confusing mess.
Totally bizar that IK hasn't taken steps, after uncountable complaints about it.

/rant off

 

[iaresee]

I travel a lot and need to pack light and small, so I got myself a Tonex One, as an temporary companion to the VP4.

While some stuff sounds pretty good (and it's cheap), the entire "snapshot" approach annoys me beyond endurance.
Having to plow through them and having to load them one by one, to see whether it works with your particular guitar, sigh ...
Plus, it doesn't help that trimming the input to avoid clipping directly affects amp gain.

In other words: Long Live Component Modeling!

There's only one thing that annoys me more than (in this area), and that's the horrible Tonex software, which is a chaotic and confusing mess.
Totally bizar that IK hasn't taken steps after uncountable complaints about it.

/rant off

You only need two pairs of underwear. Pack that FM3 in there @yek !

 

[yek]

You only need two pairs of underwear. Pack that FM3 in there @yek !

You haven't seen my underwear.

(And you won't.)

 

[Frodebro]

You haven't seen my underwear.

(And you won't.)

Wash it before you pack it…

 

[James Freeman]

Some people confuse incorrect testing procedures with inaccuracy. I.e., cranking the treble on your amp while playing in close proximity can cause a magnetic feedback loop between the output transformer and/or load-box choke and your guitar. This invariably causes high-frequency resonance, sometimes even ultrasonic. This will effect the tone and the feel.

I know users who report inaccuracies in Fractal modeling more often than not get the stick, but I am willing to take the risk or admit that I'm a fool if I'm wrong, but this time I don't think I am.
I also don't think I confuse incorrect testing with inaccuracy, I have pretty solid understanding of tube amps and more than a few years of experience myself, you know this Cliff.

The squish happens with a PPIMV at 0.1 whisper quiet bedroom volumes through a real cab.
The OT is not even slightly driven nor is the load box... there is no load box.

BTW, if I engage the FX Loop with a volume box to slightly lower the drive into the PI I don't get the squish sound anymore.
As I've written earlier, I think the origin of this squish sound happens somewhere around the distorting phase inverter possibly interacting with the feedback loop.
The Treble knob is not to blame here, if you play with a boosted Strat you get that too.

If this results in Cygnus 4, we all win.

 

[holoholo]

But but but I was told only the boiled milk helix needed master on 0.2

 

[James Freeman]

But but but I was told only the boiled milk helix needed master on 0.2

Fractal is more akin to fired cottage cheese on 0.3, it's tasty, but it's not a cheesecake either.

 

[James Freeman]

At the end of the day, modelers are an approximation, some are better than others with Fractal being at the top, but still an approximation.

EDIT:
Btw, not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but TGF is pretty much the only place where I know I am safe to report bugs and share good information.
Information is KEY, take it and conquer.

 

[Mongillo19]

At the end of the day, modelers are an approximation, some are better than others with Fractal being at the top, but still an approximation.

EDIT:
Btw, not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but TGF is pretty much the only place where I know I am safe to report bugs and share good information.
Information is KEY, take it and conquer.

Too late I already sold my III (again)

Just kidding, but I personally enjoy your insights. But you could be telling me some gibberish and I wouldn't know any different

 

[Rock Chalk]

It's a good thing we have guys like James and Andy to keep reminding us that we are only playing through photocopies and approximations, otherwise we might actually start to enjoy these things!...........

 

[Mongillo19]

It's a good thing we have guys like James and Andy to keep reminding us that we are only playing through photocopies and approximations, otherwise we might actually start to enjoy these things!...........View attachment 33865

YEAH HOW DARE JAMES POST HIS OBSERVATIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM.

You can still enjoy the unit but post findings that might help it improve. Cliff is always improving it but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it for what it is now

 

[Rock Chalk]

YEAH HOW DARE JAMES POST HIS OBSERVATIONS ON A PUBLIC FORUM.

You can still enjoy the unit but post findings that might help it improve. Cliff is always improving it but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it for what it is now

You must have missed the little laughing guy after the text........I'm not surprised.

 

[Mongillo19]

You must have missed the little laughing guy after the text........I'm not surprised.

Nah, you just tend to make snide remarks and pass them off as a joke. Passive aggressive if you will. I'm not surprised

 

[Rock Chalk]

Nah, you just tend to make snide remarks and pass them off as a joke. Passive aggressive if you will. I'm not surprised

Nah, you're just a little quick on the trigger trying to protect someone who doesn't need it......James is a big boy...he knows the score.

 

[djd100]

I know users who report inaccuracies in Fractal modeling more often than not get the stick, but I am willing to take the risk or admit that I'm a fool if I'm wrong, but this time I don't think I am.
I also don't think I confuse incorrect testing with inaccuracy, I have pretty solid understanding of tube amps and more than a few years of experience myself, you know this Cliff.

The squish happens with a PPIMV at 0.1 whisper quiet bedroom volumes through a real cab.
The OT is not even slightly driven nor is the load box... there is no load box.

BTW, if I engage the FX Loop with a volume box to slightly lower the drive into the PI I don't get the squish sound anymore.
As I've written earlier, I think the origin of this squish sound happens somewhere around the distorting phase inverter possibly interacting with the feedback loop.
The Treble knob is not to blame here, if you play with a boosted Strat you get that too.

If this results in Cygnus 4, we all win.

Where is the rest of this observation regarding the amp modeling's dynamics?

Perhaps this deserves its own thread?

 

[James Freeman]

It's a good thing we have guys like James and Andy to keep reminding us that we are only playing through photocopies and approximations, otherwise we might actually start to enjoy these things!...........

..... 'okay-ish' approximations ....

 

[FractalAudio]

I know users who report inaccuracies in Fractal modeling more often than not get the stick, but I am willing to take the risk or admit that I'm a fool if I'm wrong, but this time I don't think I am.
I also don't think I confuse incorrect testing with inaccuracy, I have pretty solid understanding of tube amps and more than a few years of experience myself, you know this Cliff.

The squish happens with a PPIMV at 0.1 whisper quiet bedroom volumes through a real cab.
The OT is not even slightly driven nor is the load box... there is no load box.

BTW, if I engage the FX Loop with a volume box to slightly lower the drive into the PI I don't get the squish sound anymore.
As I've written earlier, I think the origin of this squish sound happens somewhere around the distorting phase inverter possibly interacting with the feedback loop.
The Treble knob is not to blame here, if you play with a boosted Strat you get that too.

If this results in Cygnus 4, we all win.

I didn't realize that you were using a PPIMV.

None of our reference Plexis have a PPIMV and the models match the amps very closely at all control settings. In fact, one of the steps in model verification is setting the various controls to their extremes.

Adding a PPIMV often causes instabilities in an amp leading to high-frequency resonances. This is due to parasitic coupling from the PI plates to the input. One of our Plexis had a PPIMV installed in one of the input jack holes and it exhibited precisely this behavior even with the MV at 10 so I removed it to return it to stock specs.

Also, certain types of PPIMV change the PI plate loading and therefore reduce the effects of the snubber cap. The purpose of the snubber cap is precisely to prevent these high-frequency instabilities.

The placement of the MV is crucial. A Marshall PI has a gain of around 25. The swing at the PI plates is on the order of 100V+. If the MV is placed near the input you can get parasitic coupling of the high gain signal into the sensitive inputs. With such a high amplitude and high gain signal you don't need much parasitic coupling to introduce instability. And this coupling is almost always capacitive so it occurs at high frequencies. Using shielded wires can help but coupling can still occur. And often the resonance can be ultrasonic since the coupling is proportional to the frequency.

The best place to put a PPIMV on a Plexi is on the left but most people don't want to drill a hole in the chassis.

High frequency resonances produce exactly the phenomenon you are describing. The response gets squishy.

In short, our models cannot and do not account for instabilities or changes in frequency response incurred due to modifying an amp.

 

[James Freeman]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

So you tried several of your real Plexi amps at the suggested settings and none of them had the 'squish' sound when playing hard?
Both my 1987x with PPIMV, stock 1959HW and stock 2203 have this... weird indeed.

Anyway, thanks for checking.

 

[FractalAudio]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

So you tried several of your real Plexi amps at the suggested settings and none of them had the 'squish' sound when playing hard?
Both my 1987x with PPIMV, stock 1959HW and stock 2203 have this... weird indeed.

Anyway, thanks for checking.

I definitely get that squish when cranking the treble and I'm in close proximity to the amp. In fact, if I switch to the neck pickup (which is single coil) the amp will actually squeal.

If you crank the treble and are near the amp you'll get a high-frequency resonance due to a magnetic feedback loop. Obviously we don't model this.

Our modeling is verified using test equipment which removes all these variables from the process.

 

[James Freeman]

If you crank the treble and are near the amp you'll get a high-frequency resonance due to a magnetic feedback loop. Obviously we don't model this.

I don't think it's magnetic, oscillation or pickup related, it happens with low level signal, I am sure you will figure it out.