Fractal Talk

[BenIfin]

View attachment 17772

This is the final price for me. Plus 10€ shipping and handling.

To make the price comparison fair, this is the price for the MK2 Turbo from FAS from the US, excluding sales tax and shipping, but with the 3yr warranty.
View attachment 17773

If we take the 24% VAT of your price and convert to USD, it comes to just over $2800, so much closer than I'd expected.

Here in the UK, mine cost me about £2700, iirc. That is around $3400. I bought that from G66 Germany. They gave a 3% Brexit discount at the time, and UPS charged me the VAT and service fees on import.

Our VAT rate is 20%.

My FC-12 cost me £739. This I bought from G66 UK.

So the combined total for an Axe III and FC-12 is £3439. Which honestly is probably the most expensive pair of things I've ever purchased in one or two fell swoops like that.

But yknow what?? I think it is worth it.

In the US Fractal pricing is fine against the competion. In the EU, it is not.

Device	Price € incl 24% VAT
FM9	2395
Tone Master Pro	1733
Quad Cortex	1690
Helix Floor	1499
Kemper Stage	1444

Prices from G66 and Thomann

It's a hard sell to say the FM9 is 896 euros better than a Helix for example. That price difference would buy you an output system for your modeler for example.

I'm of course good here because my used Axe-Fx 3 Mk2 + FC-12 cost setup about new FM9 money, but an Axe-Fx 4 would have to be something really good to make me put down over 3000 euros, let alone 4000 for Turbo + FC-12.

When the Axe-Fx 3 was released, I was so disappointed in the hardware design (front panel mostly) I almost immediately put my Axe-Fx 2 for sale and went back to tube amps for a while. I'd still trade that big rack box for a Fractal VST plugin any day, but at this point don't feel like trading it for a FM9 or any other manufacturer's device. I'm waiting for the next gen from Line6 or Fractal. Or to see how the BluGuitar Amp X shapes up in the end.

What I'd give for some of that pricing here is Oz. All prices include all taxes ....

=> Axe 3 MK II Turbo AUS $5169 plus shipping
=> FC12 MK II AUS $1756 plus shipping
=> FM9 Turbo AUS $3305 plus shipping
=> FM3 MK II Turbo AUS $2442 plus shipping

=> and ^^ these prices are about %5 lower than they were around 6 months ago !

=> Kemper Stage AUS $2450 almost always with free shipping
=> Line 6 Helix Full Floor AUS $ 2550 almost always with free shipping

No secret as to when you see a person use a modeler live here - in relative terms - its usually a Kemper .... and then a Helix .... and sweet f%ck-all Axe units ..... add the pricing issue to the fact that you can try and buy a Kemper or Helix in literally almost any real store in person anywhere ......

I mean seriously ... all this stuff is so freakin' good and can all be dialled in to pro level with not much effort ..... who the f%ck down here is going to pay just a whisker under $7000 to get the Axe and FC when they can get a full floor Helix for $2450 .... that is literally $4550 less .... you can almost buy 3 x Full Floor Helix's for the price of 1 x Axe and FC !!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would be fu%king hilarious if it wasn't true.

And no ..... Im very lucky ..... price wasn't the reason I got off the Fractal train.

Ben

 

[Orvillain]

Helix at the time wasn't even on my radar because Line6 was "that company that pushes out a new modeler every year and is nowhere even close to Fractal." They've done a great job turning that around!

I always felt it was a reputation that they didn't really deserve tbh. But there again, I'm a Line6 fanboi. Have been using their stuff since 2004!

I feel like I have gone full circle again. I'm extremely happy with how Fractal sounds, I'm happy with Axe-Edit expect for the preset/cab browsers, but want usability improvements that are not happening. Hence the wait for next gen.

I'm not really sure what I would want from Fractal now. They've just done gapless switching for everything, and that was the last real tangible bugbear I had.

I'm very happy with using Axe Edit 90% of the time, and the hardware controls the other 10% of the time. I do occasionally force myself to use the unit without AxeEdit, just to make sure I know it, and to often do comparisons with Helix and things like that. I truly don't think it is as bad as some people think. For the vast majority of tasks, it is very simple to use.

 

[Orvillain]

What I'd give for some of that pricing here is Oz

The British Empire foresaw this. Not only do you have life sentences and have been exiled to a sunny place where everything can kill you, but also gear is much more expensive for you. Think of it as a modern day replacement for solitary confinement.

 

[BenIfin]

I have one word for you Sir :-

Cricket

You're welcome

 

[laxu]

I'm very happy with using Axe Edit 90% of the time, and the hardware controls the other 10% of the time. I do occasionally force myself to use the unit without AxeEdit, just to make sure I know it, and to often do comparisons with Helix and things like that. I truly don't think it is as bad as some people think. For the vast majority of tasks, it is very simple to use.

It's not rocket science. It's just not intuitive in the same way Axe-Edit is for the most part, or operating Helix. I used Helix like 98% from the onboard UI vs HX Edit. On Fractal the situation is flipped because the onboard UI feels enough of a chore to annoy me regularly.

QC is still my favorite onboard user experience on a modeler, even if it's certainly far from perfect. Compared to Helix, it takes out cursor movement and gives more directly reachable knobs to turn, with better feel to them (though I never tried Helix after they adjusted the acceleration curves from "spin it forever" to whatever it is now).

 

[Orvillain]

It's not rocket science. It's just not intuitive in the same way Axe-Edit is for the most part, or operating Helix. I used Helix like 98% from the onboard UI vs HX Edit. On Fractal the situation is flipped because the onboard UI feels enough of a chore to annoy me regularly.

QC is still my favorite onboard user experience on a modeler, even if it's certainly far from perfect. Compared to Helix, it takes out cursor movement and gives more directly reachable knobs to turn, with better feel to them (though I never tried Helix after they adjusted the acceleration curves from "spin it forever" to whatever it is now).

Kemper is probably my least favourite. QC my next least favourite. With the QC I just can't get too excited about it. It has glaring flaws that people are ignoring purely because of "ooooo shiny!" - the touchscreen is whack. Several shades of shittier than my Waldorf Iridium or the MPC grooveboxes. The way the encoders are visually disconnected from what you see on the screen, causing your eye to have to constantly track across.... BLERGH. Pig puke.

The Helix and Axe III are leaaaaaaagues ahead of the QC in terms of usability IMHO.

 

[Aleksi]

I don't find Fractal difficult to use. It's just clunky. But I started in the dark ages with a Standard well before Axe-Edit was even a thing. It doesn't take me much longer to make a basic amp cab delay reverb patch on the FM3 than the QC.

 

[Sascha Franck]

In the US Fractal pricing is fine against the competion. In the EU, it is not.

Device	Price € incl 24% VAT
FM9	2395
Tone Master Pro	1733
Quad Cortex	1690
Helix Floor	1499
Kemper Stage	1444

Prices from G66 and Thomann

It's a hard sell to say the FM9 is 896 euros better than a Helix for example. That price difference would buy you an output system for your modeler for example.

Also, is an FM9 over 2 times worth this (and you can get those used in mint condition for around 750 or even less, too):

Sure, that's not exactly a decent comparison - in case you're interested in just the sonic qualities.
But as we just talked about it, as a live player I am a whole lot interested in all things usability. Which, at least for pretty much all my use cases, the GT-1000 offers in spades. It's got global blocks, a mobile OS editor and the form/weight factor is backpack/suitcase ready.
Yeah, you can now flame me for even bringing this turd (as many seem to think) up, but personally, I actually like some of the sounds and live it doesn't exactly matter anyway (plus, I've got some nice drive pedals that I could just slap onto a little side-car board.
And fwiw, you need an extra EXP pedal for the FM9, that's another 100-150 bucks (for one with a properly working toe switch).

 

[Orvillain]

Also, is an FM9 over 2 times worth this (and you can get those used in mint condition for around 750 or even less, too):

100% it is.

The GT-1000 is a proper "me too" product, with very little going for it when you compare it against the majority of the competition. It is such a basic product that it should really cost no more than £300.

But in the UK it is £949 from Andertons, which is a completely ridiculous price.

It doesn't compete in terms of features, but also tones. The amp modelling atrocious. TMP levels of last-gen-ery.

 

[Sascha Franck]

QC is still my favorite onboard user experience on a modeler, even if it's certainly far from perfect.

Even if I only had one pretty brief testrun with the QC of a guitarist mate, gotta completely agree. A touchscreen where a touchscreen is extremely helpful (selecting and moving things, typing), knobs with tactile feeback for, well, knobs.
In case I wouldn't have to keep the unit on the floor, I'd likely never use any editor for a QC.

Compared to Helix, it takes out cursor movement and gives more directly reachable knobs to turn, with better feel to them (though I never tried Helix after they adjusted the acceleration curves from "spin it forever" to whatever it is now).

Fwiw, as said before already, for me that's been the worst aspect of the 3.5 update. Knobs are now sort of working in a 1:1 fashion, which is extraordinarily bad when said knobs are a) small and b) almost friction-free. It's incredibly easy to overdo things and pretty tough to do finetunings, especially on an HX Stomp where you may accidentally touch a switch and hence have to go for weird hand/finger angles. I think L6 should've made this optional and even add a third inbetween mode.

 

[laxu]

Kemper is probably my least favourite. QC my next least favourite. With the QC I just can't get too excited about it. It has glaring flaws that people are ignoring purely because of "ooooo shiny!" - the touchscreen is whack. Several shades of shittier than my Waldorf Iridium or the MPC grooveboxes. The way the encoders are visually disconnected from what you see on the screen, causing your eye to have to constantly track across.... BLERGH. Pig puke.

The Helix and Axe III are leaaaaaaagues ahead of the QC in terms of usability IMHO.

My experience with the QC is at release and for me the touchscreen worked well enough. While it's not at the level of the latest and greatest phones or tablets for sure, I didn't have issues with it. This is based on a sample size of 1 so I can't say if there's variance in this between units.

The screen-to-knob mental mapping took me a bit of time but eventually became very intuitive where I wasn't looking for which knob to grab but my hand went to the right place same as e.g turning something on my pedalboard. Only the cab block was problematic because its controls didn't map to the knobs like they are on screen. I believe NDSP has fixed that by redesigning it.

The response of the knobs on the QC also impressed me, they felt almost as good as turning regular knobs on pedals. This is often hard to get right with encoders because the acceleration curves need to be setup just right. On Fractal it's easy to under or overshoot the value and I don't particularly love the "notchy clickyness" of the Fractal knobs.

 

[Sascha Franck]

100% it is.

i guess we have to disagree here.

The GT-1000 is a proper "me too" product, with very little going for it when you compare it against the majority of the competition. It is such a basic product that it should really cost no more than £300.

Again, I totally disagree. For a start, it's got very robust road ready hardware. That's quite important for me. A lot of the competitors offer way less sturdy hardware (for example the HX series included). Also, if it really broke or got stolen, I'd have a replacement tomorrow. What if that happened to your precious FM9?

It doesn't compete in terms of features, but also tones. The amp modelling atrocious. TMP levels of last-gen-ery.

And yet again I disagree. I can perfectly understand how many people don't get along well with Boss' modeling (especially in case you're after whatever authentic/classic tones), but I like quite some of the tones. Same goes for the FX. Yes, they're limited in terms of options (compared to their standalones) and there's also a vastly limited amount of them, compared to other contenders. And still, they sound pretty good. In a live context, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[TSJMajesty]

I guess I'm not typical when it comes to gear. Rocked my Silverburst LP for a decade before PRS caught my eye, another decade or so with those 2 until EBMM became my thing. Going on 5 years now with the Majesty.

Same for amps. After my Marshall phase, switched to Mesa with an MP-1, and was cool with that setup for about 20 years.

Now that it's an Axe III, I'll not be the guy who tries to "time the market" to try to sell at just the right time, just so I can get the 'latest/greatest.' Damn thing sounds so fantastic that I may never upgrade again.

#colormecontent

 

[Orvillain]

i guess we have to disagree here.



Again, I totally disagree. For a start, it's got very robust road ready hardware. That's quite important for me. A lot of the competitors offer way less sturdy hardware (for example the HX series included). Also, if it really broke or got stolen, I'd have a replacement tomorrow. What if that happened to your precious FM9?



And yet again I disagree. I can perfectly understand how many people don't get along well with Boss' modeling (especially in case you're after whatever authentic/classic tones), but I like quite some of the tones. Same goes for the FX. Yes, they're limited in terms of options (compared to their standalones) and there's also a vastly limited amount of them, compared to other contenders. And still, they sound pretty good. In a live context, it doesn't matter anyway.

I mean, of course you disagree. But listen....

You can have it cheap and fast, but not good.
You can have it fast and good, but not cheap.
You can have it good and cheap, but not fast.

The GT-1000 is incredibly limited in several key areas, and these units aren't just made for live performance. They're made for studio use, practice use. They're intended for demos, albums, performance, the whole gamut of things involved in producing music. That's why Helix and Axe FX III are so feature rich - and because of the time it takes to get them to that point, that is why the prices end up rising.

The GT-1000 is rehoused algorithms from older tech, in a hardware box that is very similar to GT units of yesteryear. It brings very little technology to the table that is new and current-generation.

BTW - the "it doesn't matter live anyway" crowd that always pops up in these kinds of discussions, largely don't play live anyway!!

 

[Sascha Franck]

The GT-1000 is incredibly limited in several key areas, and these units aren't just made for live performance.

Sorry, but that's such an ignorant statement. Until this day, there's not one single other unit that has earned me more money than my GT-5s and GT-10s. Through live playing. Sometimes using them standalone, sometimes with additional stuff.

The GT-1000 is rehoused algorithms from older tech, in a hardware box that is very similar to GT units of yesteryear.

Both of these statements are simply not true. Their X amps are new tech, so are some of their reverbs and delays.
And regarding hardware, I happily take "yesteryears" hardware in case it lasts. Which can't be said for many newer units.

BTW - the "it doesn't matter live anyway" crowd that always pops up in these kinds of discussions, largely don't play live anyway!!

I make my living through live playing for around 3 decades by now. Various Boss units have been a staple in that experience.

 

[Orvillain]

Both of these statements are simply not true. Their X amps are new tech, so are some of their reverbs and delays.

I may be incorrect on the X amps, but I think they originated earlier, and then had AIRD strapped onto the end of them.

All of the GT1000's delays and reverbs are derived from previous products; the 500 series for sure. They nerfed a lot of the controls and possibilities though.

Sorry, but that's such an ignorant statement. Until this day, there's not one single other unit that has earned me more money than my GT-5s and GT-10s. Through live playing. Sometimes using them standalone, sometimes with additional stuff.

Limitations of feature sets and key areas isn't measured by your personal wallet, Sascha.

I make my living through live playing for around 3 decades by now. Various Boss units have been a staple in that experience.

Cool. Good for you. Has nothing to do with the topic though. If you're happy with your Boss units, why are you constantly fantasizing about all the other gear conforming to your weird expectations??? It is odd.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I may be incorrect on the X amps, but I think they originated earlier, and then had AIRD strapped onto the end of them.

No, they were released with the GT-1000. The GT-100 doesn't have them.
Same goes for their MDP processing (I think first released in their Tera Echo), which also found it's way into the GT-1000.

Limitations of feature sets and key areas isn't measured by your personal wallet, Sascha.

My wallet hasn't got anything to do with that. What a snobby reply.

If you're happy with your Boss units, why are you constantly fantasizing about all the other gear conforming to your weird expectations??? It is odd.

I'm not fantasizing at all. And there's no "weird" expectations at all.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

You didn't already? Pfft.

Honestly no. I had zero interest in fractal until this place. My first experience of anyone talking about fractal was at TOP, that's when I realised fractal users love the smell of their own farts. Plus the price of them in the UK is pretty crazy compared to any of the competition. I also didn't know anyone who had a fractal unit to checkout.

It wasn't until I started posting here that I realised my initial experience of fractal users was incorrect and that it's really some people at TOP love the smell of their own farts while discussing the latest hype train fad that they've spent X dollars on and not really anything to do with fractal.

 

[laxu]

I may be incorrect on the X amps, but I think they originated earlier, and then had AIRD strapped onto the end of them.

That's Boss for you. They have I think 3 different amp modeling types at this point. AIRD is the newest and seems to mainly deal with things like speaker impedance curves for more authentic behavior. MDP is what the X amps use, which seems to be designed mostly for "sounds/feels good" rather than accuracy.

https://www.boss.info/us/promos/gt-1000_ultimate_guide/ is a good source and includes a link to more info about MDP too.

Even in that article the "classic" amps are mentioned more like an afterthought. I assume Boss is just not interested in even going for "ooh look how many real amps this models in such authenticity" like every other modeler does and honestly, that's commendable. At least they are trying to do something different in a sea of "me too" products.

I'm going to Japan next month, maybe I need to see if I can find some Boss gear real cheap. I've been tempted to try something like the IR-200 or GT-1000 Core because I feel like I might be the target audience: the person who doesn't care what the amp model represents, just that it sounds/feels good to me. But at the same time the user interfaces might push me away.

 

[Orvillain]

My wallet hasn't got anything to do with that. What a snobby reply.

Bollocks. You brought your wallet into it. Not me. I was just replying to your non-sequitur.

That's Boss for you. They have I think 3 different amp modeling types at this point. AIRD is the newest and seems to mainly deal with things like speaker impedance curves for more authentic behavior. MDP is what the X amps use, which seems to be designed mostly for "sounds/feels good" rather than accuracy.

https://www.boss.info/us/promos/gt-1000_ultimate_guide/ is a good source and includes a link to more info about MDP too.

Even in that article the "classic" amps are mentioned more like an afterthought. I assume Boss is just not interested in even going for "ooh look how many real amps this models in such authenticity" like every other modeler does and honestly, that's commendable. At least they are trying to do something different in a sea of "me too" products.

I'm going to Japan next month, maybe I need to see if I can find some Boss gear real cheap. I've been tempted to try something like the IR-200 or GT-1000 Core because I feel like I might be the target audience: the person who doesn't care what the amp model represents, just that it sounds/feels good to me. But at the same time the user interfaces might push me away.

I think basically they don't have the DSP expertise to get amps done properly. Their individual pedals are amazing. Most of them are top notch. But their multi's have always been crap IMHO.

The GT1000Core makes more sense to me as an addon to a larger board or even another multi-FX where you want a few Boss flavours.