Fractal Talk

[deadpool_25]

Multiply that times every preset where you use that block... Now try to remember every preset where you use that block.

And every other block...

Global blocks is one and done and no need to keep track of other stuff.

Global blocks isn't a huge deal for me personally but I definitely understand the desire. It's maybe even more desirable now that gapless is a thing as people would be more likely to be switching presets instead of just scenes or channels.

 

[unix-guy]

Global blocks isn't a huge deal for me personally but I definitely understand the desire. It's maybe even more desirable now that gapless is a thing as people would be more likely to be switching presets instead of just scenes or channels.

Yeah... I used them a lot on the Axe Fx II.

When Axe Fx III was released they weren't yet there and so I started working without them.

And then I got the FM9... And been trying to "live" there to be comfortable for gigging, and no global blocks.

But if most of your presets use a common "pool" of blocks it can really be beneficial.

I've started using far less presets over the last 4-5 years... But now with gapless, having global blocks would be super useful.

 

[Sascha Franck]

What pricing tactics?

All FAS devices are horribly expensive over here.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I hear you , could you not just update a library
Let’s say you tweak a 5153 blue just re-save it to the library, I mean it will take you an extra 30 seconds to reload it but it does not seems like a huge deal
Also save templates
That said I have all of about 20 presets

That's an entirely different thing and *completely* impossible in a live context.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It's maybe even more desirable now that gapless is a thing as people would be more likely to be switching presets instead of just scenes or channels.

Exactly.

And btw (sorry for the OT), it'd even more become a thing for Helix users for the same reasons, simply because gapless switching requires you to sacrifice half of your CPU power, but with global blocks you could sort of compensate for that because you could just keep all the relevant things identical from patch to patch and only alter some special stuff.

The need for large, tough to deciper and edit (let alone reverse engineer) kitchen sink presets in general would decrease, regardless of the modeler you're using, because you could always keep your presets in a way that they'd only deliver the core things - and you could then add whatever specialities to dedicated presets. It's pretty much as if presets became scenes - just that they'd offer a much more comfortable overview of the entire shebang.

And in addition, global blocks are also a great way to check out variations of a patch when you want larger parts to be the same but add some quite different other things.

 

[Aleksi]

All FAS devices are horribly expensive over here.

The issue is probably that Fractal can't (afford to) sell their devices for much cheaper to distributors, since they only sell direct in the us. It's not exactly like, say, Line 6 or Fender who sell their gear through distributors and thus have the retail cut baked into their prices. G66 has to import the merchandise and pay taxes and customs and all that.

 

[LP59]

The issue is probably that Fractal can't (afford to) sell their devices for much cheaper to distributors, since they only sell direct in the us. It's not exactly like, say, Line 6 or Fender who sell their gear through distributors and thus have the retail cut baked into their prices. G66 has to import the merchandise and pay taxes and customs and all that.

I'm pretty sure the issue is they aren't a large enough company to go to the expense of setting up a european subsidiary like Line6/Yamaha and Fender do. That makes Fractal foreigners, who must sell through a distributor (G66), which means they have to pay a lot of fees and taxes Line6 and Fender don't.

 

[deadpool_25]

All FAS devices are horribly expensive over here.

Compared to what?

This is the final price of an AxeFX to me in the US.

 

[Aleksi]

This is the final price for me. Plus 10€ shipping and handling.

 

[Aleksi]

I'm pretty sure the issue is they aren't a large enough company to go to the expense of setting up a european subsidiary like Line6/Yamaha and Fender do. That makes Fractal foreigners, who must sell through a distributor (G66), which means they have to pay a lot of fees and taxes Line6 and Fender don't.

I'm pretty sure you are more correct than I am. Either way, it's more expensive for FAS to sell their stuff overseas.

 

[deadpool_25]

View attachment 17772

This is the final price for me. Plus 10€ shipping and handling.

What is your VAT rate?

 

[Aleksi]

What is your VAT rate?

24%

Do note that I never said it was horribly expensive. I just posted the final price for me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This is the final price of an AxeFX to me in the US.

It's 2.899 € for the Mk II - which isn't available anymore. The turbo is 3,099 € (plus shipping), which is around 3,379 US$, so that's around 5-600 more than over there. And from all I know, you can do some tax trickery, which is impossible over here.

Besides, while their service likely isn't bad, you can't get a temporary replacement at all, which is pretty bad in case repair is taking longer and you have some important gigs to play. Should your Helix, Kemper, GT-1000, Headrush or whatever break, you'd have a replacement very quickly.

As said, I'd possibly be willing to accept the "FAS/G66 fee" and save some funds for an FM9, but for that to happen it'd have to have global blocks.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The issue is probably that Fractal can't (afford to) sell their devices for much cheaper to distributors, since they only sell direct in the us. It's not exactly like, say, Line 6 or Fender who sell their gear through distributors and thus have the retail cut baked into their prices. G66 has to import the merchandise and pay taxes and customs and all that.

I'm absolutely aware of that. But then, Kemper started pretty small, too - and they're available from each and every distributor.

 

[Aleksi]

I actually switched away from Fractal because I thought they had gotten too expensive. Now I'm back to using Fractal and spent more money on flipping gear than I would've if I had just bought the damn Fractal in the first place.

 

[Foxmeister]

View attachment 17772

This is the final price for me. Plus 10€ shipping and handling.

To make the price comparison fair, this is the price for the MK2 Turbo from FAS from the US, excluding sales tax and shipping, but with the 3yr warranty.

If we take the 24% VAT of your price and convert to USD, it comes to just over $2800, so much closer than I'd expected.

 

[Orvillain]

Here in the UK, mine cost me about £2700, iirc. That is around $3400. I bought that from G66 Germany. They gave a 3% Brexit discount at the time, and UPS charged me the VAT and service fees on import.

Our VAT rate is 20%.

My FC-12 cost me £739. This I bought from G66 UK.

So the combined total for an Axe III and FC-12 is £3439. Which honestly is probably the most expensive pair of things I've ever purchased in one or two fell swoops like that.

But yknow what?? I think it is worth it.

 

[laxu]

In the US Fractal pricing is fine against the competion. In the EU, it is not.

Device	Price € incl 24% VAT
FM9	2395
Tone Master Pro	1733
Quad Cortex	1690
Helix Floor	1499
Kemper Stage	1444

Prices from G66 and Thomann

It's a hard sell to say the FM9 is 896 euros better than a Helix for example. That price difference would buy you an output system for your modeler for example.

I'm of course good here because my used Axe-Fx 3 Mk2 + FC-12 cost setup about new FM9 money, but an Axe-Fx 4 would have to be something really good to make me put down over 3000 euros, let alone 4000 for Turbo + FC-12.

When the Axe-Fx 3 was released, I was so disappointed in the hardware design (front panel mostly) I almost immediately put my Axe-Fx 2 for sale and went back to tube amps for a while. I'd still trade that big rack box for a Fractal VST plugin any day, but at this point don't feel like trading it for a FM9 or any other manufacturer's device. I'm waiting for the next gen from Line6 or Fractal. Or to see how the BluGuitar Amp X shapes up in the end.

 

[Orvillain]

It's a hard sell to say the FM9 is 896 euros better than a Helix for example. That price difference would buy you an output system for your modeler for example.

That price different would almost get you an Eventide H90 as well

When the Axe-Fx 3 was released, I was so disappointed in the hardware design (front panel mostly) I almost immediately put my Axe-Fx 2 for sale and went back to tube amps for a while.

That is odd. Presumably you were happy with your Axe FX II? So why the urge to sell it? That would be as if I felt like giving my 80's VHS copy of Ghostbusters to a charity shop just because the abysmal 2016 remake came out!!

In any way... the hardware design, the colour screens, and the massive amounts of DSP on offer, are what reignited my interested in Fractal. I owned an Axe FX II a few times, and I couldn't bond with it at all. Hated the green screens, didn't think the amps sounded as good as what I already had, had many minor quibbles with the reverbs and delays and other effects, and all in all.... it wasn't for me. Fractal didn't really grab me until the Axe FX III.

 

[laxu]

That price different would almost get you an Eventide H90 as well

Hey I'm the first to say that box is expensive for what it is!

That is odd. Presumably you were happy with your Axe FX II? So why the urge to sell it? That would be as if I felt like giving my 80's VHS copy of Ghostbusters to a charity shop just because the abysmal 2016 remake came out!!

In any way... the hardware design, the colour screens, and the massive amounts of DSP on offer, are what reignited my interested in Fractal. I owned an Axe FX II a few times, and I couldn't bond with it at all. Hated the green screens, didn't think the amps sounded as good as what I already had, had many minor quibbles with the reverbs and delays and other effects, and all in all.... it wasn't for me. Fractal didn't really grab me until the Axe FX III.

When the new gen comes out, the old gen prices tend to tank so I thought I might as well get out while I still could. A new Fractal device becomes available in EU anything from 3-6 months after it is available to buy in the US, so that's the time frame when you can still get decent money out of the previous one. Then the used prices really tank, and eventually come back up a bit when there's less Axe-Fx 2 owners selling theirs. I hope I can figure out a good timing to sell my Axe-Fx 3 rig in the next few years and get what I paid for out of it.

I was already happy with the tones I was getting out of the Axe-Fx 2, I just wanted better usability. I loathed the onboard user experience. It just happened to be the best thing on the market at the time so I just sucked it up and dealt with it and use Axe-Edit.

Seeing the Axe-Fx 3 get released with that same old shitty navigation button setup etc was so disappointing for me. Fractal even threw out some of the good dedicated buttons the Axe-Fx 2 had that made e.g global settings access super quick. Ok, in reality it is now better to use than the Axe-Fx 2, but I am still using Axe-Edit 98% of the time. I thought I would use the Axe-Fx 3 onboard controls more since it's on my desk, but I barely touch anything but the output level knobs if I can help it.

Helix at the time wasn't even on my radar because Line6 was "that company that pushes out a new modeler every year and is nowhere even close to Fractal." They've done a great job turning that around!

I feel like I have gone full circle again. I'm extremely happy with how Fractal sounds, I'm happy with Axe-Edit expect for the preset/cab browsers, but want usability improvements that are not happening. Hence the wait for next gen.