Amp Modeler Tier Ranking

[gdhi11]

I've read enough of your posts to understand why you feel that way, but no single sentence could better prove @Orvillain's point about people's use cases/ needs being different. On the face of it, I read "Kemper for its excellent UI", and...

Getting lots of mileage out of this one this week LOL.

Count me among them. I think Kemper's UI was probably the easiest workflow I've ever used. I could setup tones in seconds without ever plugging into a PC. (and couldn't because there was no editor when I first got mine)

At the time things like Helix and Fractal gave me option paralysis.

 

[dean701]

I've done extensive testing on this with the Helix. Latency, and D/A conversion absolutely has an impact on the sound going through the unit. Every loop also changes things slightly, increases latency etc.. No fx stompboxes have perfect impedance either. That's a whole other thing. The Helix does have impedance compensation, but it's pretty much impossible to match every pedal's preferred input value with preset numbers. That said, they do better with input impedance adjustment into fuzzes than Fractal does by a mile. I have used the fuzzface in helix in place of my real stompboxes quite a few times. It's basically identical.

That said, it's a chasing-the-tail thing to worry about.

thanks. I no longer have a Helix in my possession but if I did, I would blast a sweep through it with no blocks engaged. I'd be interested to see what it's doing between the in and the out.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but if I did, I would blast a sweep through it with no blocks engaged. I'd be interested to see what it's doing between the in and the out.

Why? And what would you expect it to do? Or not expect it to do?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Count me among them. I think Kemper's UI was probably the easiest workflow I've ever used. I could setup tones in seconds without ever plugging into a PC. (and couldn't because there was no editor when I first got mine)

At the time things like Helix and Fractal gave me option paralysis.

I think at least with the Helix you can take it as far that on-unit-editing becomes as comfortable as on the Kemper. The downside being that you need to become familiar with some things first, a) because until recently, IMO some defaults were horrible (this has changed a lot with the new amp additions) and b) you'd have to assign switches to blocks (and in case they're not what you want for live, that's alway a compromise). The Kemper however is pretty much a unit you don't need to know much (if anything) about when you start fooling around, at least not in case you're familiar with digital progammable devices.

 

[Jkist7]

QC has PC editor since several weeks ago.

Also, The Hotone Stomp is not very good in terms of latency. It could cause some problems when integrating it with other digital pedals, as latencies add up.

Glad they finally made good on that promise at least. Hotone is around 3.2ms if using an IR, and around 7ms if using a cab block. I do agree, 7ms is too high for a lot of setups, but 3ms is the same as most of the other big dogs in the game (QC, Fractal, etc).

 

[Digital Igloo]

Glad they finally made good on that promise at least. Hotone is around 3.2ms if using an IR, and around 7ms if using a cab block. I do agree, 7ms is too high for a lot of setups, but 3ms is the same as most of the other big dogs in the game (QC, Fractal, etc).

Both Fractal and Helix are sub-2ms.

 

[Jkist7]

Both Fractal and Helix are sub-2ms.

Point still stands. 3ms is plenty competitive. Or are you going to tell me you can feel the difference in 1ms?

 

[la szum]

Ever feel like someone doesn't know who they are conversing with?

 

[dean701]

I think when addressing either 'Fractal Audio' or 'Digital Igloo', you should probably mind your please and thank yous. They've done a hell of a lot for a great deal of guitarists out there and deserve a lot of respect. Not that anything wrong has been stated - just sayin...

 

[DrewJD82]

I think when addressing either 'Fractal Audio' or 'Digital Igloo', you should probably mind your please and thank yous. They've done a hell of a lot for a great deal of guitarists out there and deserve a lot of respect.

While I totally agree with this, I love seeing a challenger step into the ring. It's 10x more fun when they know who it is, but still.

 

[gdhi11]

thanks. I no longer have a Helix in my possession but if I did, I would blast a sweep through it with no blocks engaged. I'd be interested to see what it's doing between the in and the out.

I mean, that would've been more extensive than blindfold and listening tests. I was using my daw to measure latency, between bypassed and unbypassed signals. I was shooting out real pedal examples I had access to with the models inside (King of Tone is really frickin' good honestly)

What we noticed was a signal change even between bypassed, and an empty line (just straight through to the out) that's what we surmised was likely D/A related. It was noticeably different in recording tests where we had it deployed in 4 cable with an amp, and we surmised that it was likely either impedance or D/A conversion related--which is exactly what you'd expect to find and not necessarily a bad thing.

Truthfully, even true bypass stuff with short cable runs will impart changes on your signal--so I just want to be as candid as possible, this was a much bigger change then that IMO. Not necessarily undesirable per-say, but if you like your direct signal, you definitely want to setup a bypass test.

 

[gdhi11]

Point still stands. 3ms is plenty competitive. Or are you going to tell me you can feel the difference in 1ms?

on input to output. add the loops, measure the latency of blocks inside the unit too. This had been done in prior versions and was found to be significantly more than 3ms. I remember the number being closer to 20ms when you use all 4 loops and some typical blocks in the unit itself.

TBH, that's probably usable since 20ms worth of latency isn't all that uncommon on a giant stage. It could become more problematic if you're chaining together a bunch of other digital devices doing latent conversions, and then standing in front of a rig where your speaker (not in ears?) is 6 meters away.

There are wireless units being sold that are over 8ms latent. 8+3+ (6 meters*3 milliseconds of latency) and you're now pushing into, yeah, you're gonna feel that territory; and that's assuming you aren't using the loops or any other external devices that could impact this.

While we're on the subject, Recording with about 5ms of latency is fine, anymore than 15, and I will be guaranteed time aligning certain parts depending on what I'm playing. I actually get asked to do studio sessions pretty frequently, and you don't notice it when playing--but the groove starts getting pretty "fuzzy" after a while. That depends on the genre obviously, sometimes having a little wiggle on the beat is OK, other times you gotta nail it, and 15ms off will actually feel less punchy.

Never really had this problem with Helix because I just didn't bother using the loops. Not really a whole lot of reason to use them anyway--the FX in there are generally great.

 

[gdhi11]

FWIW, I'm a fractal user at the moment, and although I was interested enough to look into the Helix spec, I was perfectly fine with it. Later after I parted ways with the fullsize Helix I bought an HX Stomp and used that for 2-3 years gigging.

Nothing wrong with either product really--just gotta know the limitations to an extent.

 

[Jkist7]

Ever feel like someone doesn't know who they are conversing with?

Yep, don't know, don't particularly care. Still stand by everything I said.

 

[Sedaxel]

I mean, that would've been more extensive than blindfold and listening tests. I was using my daw to measure latency, between bypassed and unbypassed signals. I was shooting out real pedal examples I had access to with the models inside (King of Tone is really frickin' good honestly)

What we noticed was a signal change even between bypassed, and an empty line (just straight through to the out) that's what we surmised was likely D/A related. It was noticeably different in recording tests where we had it deployed in 4 cable with an amp, and we surmised that it was likely either impedance or D/A conversion related--which is exactly what you'd expect to find and not necessarily a bad thing.

Truthfully, even true bypass stuff with short cable runs will impart changes on your signal--so I just want to be as candid as possible, this was a much bigger change then that IMO. Not necessarily undesirable per-say, but if you like your direct signal, you definitely want to setup a bypass test.

I noticed exactly that thing in my helix LT. I used it in 4cm with my amp, And I could perfectly feel the colouring of the signal even with empty presets.

Making the same with a zoom (not 4cm, since the G1X Four hasn't fx loop... But passing the guitar through an empty preset too), the signal passes with no noticeable change at all.

That was the reason why I sold the helix. In any other way, I loved it. But if I want to use a real amp, I want my signal to be as real as possible...

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

Had to check twice to make sure we weren't at "The Other Place".

 

[gdhi11]

I noticed exactly that thing in my helix LT. I used it in 4cm with my amp, And I could perfectly feel the colouring of the signal even with empty presets.

Making the same with a zoom (not 4cm, since the G1X Four hasn't fx loop... But passing the guitar through an empty preset too), the signal passes with no noticeable change at all.

That was the reason why I sold the helix. In any other way, I loved it. But if I want to use a real amp, I want my signal to be as real as possible...

Yeah, I dunno; some people know about it and don't care--I have a couple of friends who've gotten real inquisitive as to why the HX Stomp is changing the sound when it's engaged in their fx loops, but they haven't stopped using them.

It's so cool to me to see how ubiquitous the HX stomp is. In our little group of players near me, there are like 8 or 9 floating around with the scene players who are gigging 2 or 3 nights a week. Those are 8 or 9 of the 15 or 20 people getting all the gigs.

Not a knock, but I'm the only one playing at the jams running an FM9. Sometimes, it's easy to lose sight that we, forumites, are a really small portion of the whole market. Not to say that we aren't more engaged.

 

[Sedaxel]

Yeah, I dunno; some people know about it and don't care--I have a couple of friends who've gotten real inquisitive as to why the HX Stomp is changing the sound when it's engaged in their fx loops, but they haven't stopped using them.

It's so cool to me to see how ubiquitous the HX stomp is. In our little group of players near me, there are like 8 or 9 floating around with the scene players who are gigging 2 or 3 nights a week. Those are 8 or 9 of the 15 or 20 people getting all the gigs.

Not a knock, but I'm the only one playing at the jams running an FM9. Sometimes, it's easy to lose sight that we, forumites, are a really small portion of the whole market. Not to say that we aren't more engaged.

The HXs and helixes are just great machines. That's a fact. And L6 makes an awesome job with it, keeping the updates up.

But hey, in my unit, it clearly changed the signal more than a cheapo Zoom. That's also a fact (with the units I had in my hands).

By the way: it was not only the tone. I felt something in the attack. I don't know, it was like some cushion effect (for the lack of a better word). Couldn't really explain the feeling, actually.

 

[fretworn]

Yep, don't know, don't particularly care. Still stand by everything I said.

That’s a clinical behavior of a psychopath

 

[the-trooper]

Yep, don't know, don't particularly care. Still stand by everything I said.

Hell yeah! No regrets! Pedal to the metal!