Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe
- Thread starter Orvillain
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DLC86
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Somehow I've missed this long thread until now and I just finished reading it all (I know, I'm a masochist), so I'll give my 2¢ (which will be pretty long, so I'm sadist as well 
).
Regarding feel, I pretty much agree with a post from @Orvillain , for me it is not just sound and the effect it has on our body and ears, but also how it reacts to playing and to the feedback circuit created when playing at a high enough volume.
What makes you feel "connected" with a real amp or even a good modeler (for me) imho is how the (real or virtual) amp reacts to all the small nuances of your playing, how notes bloom when you dig in, how palm mutes thump when you hit the strings in the right spot and with the right pick angle, how the tone gets rounder when you play softly, the speed with which it reacts to all this (i.e. transient response), etc.
And the reason you can't perceive this "feel" when you're not playing in first person is cuz you don't have information about how the hand is moving, so you just hear the final result without knowing what's the "input".
Same way as you can't tell how a car feels to drive by watching someone else driving it, you're simply not part of that "feedback loop".
Where I disagree with Orvillain is that the feel of a tube amp can't be matched by a modeler thru a class D power amp. It's not easy to do so but it's definitely feasible imho:
Firstly, obviously you need a power amp that can deliver the same wattage as your tube amp continuously, if your tube head is 100w the class D amp probably needs to be rated at 400 or 500 W at the impedance of your cab.
In my case, the most powerful tube amp I've ever owned was a hiwatt 50 W head and that was already unmanageable for the levels I usually play at, thru a 2x12. More recently I also had the little 20W EL84-based version which was perfect for my needs.
Currently I run my fm9 thru a diy built Icepower (basically the same thing you find inside the SD powerstage) 125asx2, which is stereo though and 2x125W into 4Ω or 2x65W into 8Ω. Continuous power is rated at 65W into 4Ω and 70W into 8Ω.
If you want you can check the specs for the SD PS170 too, just look for the 50asx2 datasheet.
(EDIT: just checked and it's rated for 50W at 4Ω and 100W at 8Ω
)
A while back I measured with my multimeter the output voltage with a sine wave at the same maximum level I usually run my presets for the max out knob position I use, just to check if I was running everything within specs... and it turned out I never ever went past 25W per channel (the speakers in my cab are pretty efficient though), so in that case I have plenty of headroom on the power amp to not push it thru its limits and maybe even to avoid the phenomena Cliff and Jay described about the power supply.
Secondly, a very important part is to try to match the impedance curve in the modeler to the one of your real cab, I am lucky to have the curve of one of my cabs included in the Fractal firmware, when it was added a few years ago it made a night and day difference in the feel department and I bet that might be the #1 reason why most don't gel with modelers thru SS amps.
For the cabs I currently use I don't have the exact curves in the fm9, but I measured them anyway and tried to replicate them by editing the parameters, and I can say that once you manage to match the low resonance(s) you're 90% there. So I suggest all interested in trying that, there's a thread in the fractal forum where it's explained how to measure impedance curves with REW.
And no, trying to find the low resonant frequency just by playing chugga-chugga as was suggested years ago (even by Cliff) doesn't work, it's more likely you'll find a room mode with that method.
Third and last step is to fine tune some speaker related parameters.
Speaker compliance basically makes the impedance curve become dynamic, increasing it makes the resonant frequencies shift as you play, and I guess that might be part of why we perceive cabs as "lively" when paired with tube amps.
Speaker comp, when output mode is set to "SS PA + Cab", actually counteracts the thermal compression the real speaker has when it is driven by a SS power amp, as that is MORE than the compression it'd have with a tube power amp, so that parameter makes the sound more "bouncy" and dynamic.
With all these tweaks in the end I managed to match the feel of my tube amps pretty closely and maybe make it even better for my taste. Ymmv
).Regarding feel, I pretty much agree with a post from @Orvillain , for me it is not just sound and the effect it has on our body and ears, but also how it reacts to playing and to the feedback circuit created when playing at a high enough volume.
What makes you feel "connected" with a real amp or even a good modeler (for me) imho is how the (real or virtual) amp reacts to all the small nuances of your playing, how notes bloom when you dig in, how palm mutes thump when you hit the strings in the right spot and with the right pick angle, how the tone gets rounder when you play softly, the speed with which it reacts to all this (i.e. transient response), etc.
And the reason you can't perceive this "feel" when you're not playing in first person is cuz you don't have information about how the hand is moving, so you just hear the final result without knowing what's the "input".
Same way as you can't tell how a car feels to drive by watching someone else driving it, you're simply not part of that "feedback loop".
Where I disagree with Orvillain is that the feel of a tube amp can't be matched by a modeler thru a class D power amp. It's not easy to do so but it's definitely feasible imho:
Firstly, obviously you need a power amp that can deliver the same wattage as your tube amp continuously, if your tube head is 100w the class D amp probably needs to be rated at 400 or 500 W at the impedance of your cab.
In my case, the most powerful tube amp I've ever owned was a hiwatt 50 W head and that was already unmanageable for the levels I usually play at, thru a 2x12. More recently I also had the little 20W EL84-based version which was perfect for my needs.
Currently I run my fm9 thru a diy built Icepower (basically the same thing you find inside the SD powerstage) 125asx2, which is stereo though and 2x125W into 4Ω or 2x65W into 8Ω. Continuous power is rated at 65W into 4Ω and 70W into 8Ω.
If you want you can check the specs for the SD PS170 too, just look for the 50asx2 datasheet.
(EDIT: just checked and it's rated for 50W at 4Ω and 100W at 8Ω
)A while back I measured with my multimeter the output voltage with a sine wave at the same maximum level I usually run my presets for the max out knob position I use, just to check if I was running everything within specs... and it turned out I never ever went past 25W per channel (the speakers in my cab are pretty efficient though), so in that case I have plenty of headroom on the power amp to not push it thru its limits and maybe even to avoid the phenomena Cliff and Jay described about the power supply.
Secondly, a very important part is to try to match the impedance curve in the modeler to the one of your real cab, I am lucky to have the curve of one of my cabs included in the Fractal firmware, when it was added a few years ago it made a night and day difference in the feel department and I bet that might be the #1 reason why most don't gel with modelers thru SS amps.
For the cabs I currently use I don't have the exact curves in the fm9, but I measured them anyway and tried to replicate them by editing the parameters, and I can say that once you manage to match the low resonance(s) you're 90% there. So I suggest all interested in trying that, there's a thread in the fractal forum where it's explained how to measure impedance curves with REW.
And no, trying to find the low resonant frequency just by playing chugga-chugga as was suggested years ago (even by Cliff) doesn't work, it's more likely you'll find a room mode with that method.
Third and last step is to fine tune some speaker related parameters.
Speaker compliance basically makes the impedance curve become dynamic, increasing it makes the resonant frequencies shift as you play, and I guess that might be part of why we perceive cabs as "lively" when paired with tube amps.
Speaker comp, when output mode is set to "SS PA + Cab", actually counteracts the thermal compression the real speaker has when it is driven by a SS power amp, as that is MORE than the compression it'd have with a tube power amp, so that parameter makes the sound more "bouncy" and dynamic.
With all these tweaks in the end I managed to match the feel of my tube amps pretty closely and maybe make it even better for my taste. Ymmv
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OrganicZed
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yeky83
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Depends on how you define things I suppose, but all that is still within the realm of sound. You can’t have feel without sound, nor a difference in feel without a difference in sound. High volume, bloom, thump, roundness, transient response, etc., all these are differences in sound one feels as one plays. Once you bring a deaf person into the discussion or say there can be a difference in feel without a materialistic difference in sound, it all becomes nonsense which is a lot of this thread unfortunately.
Los-D
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Oh yeah, I recall you shared that in the past maybe TOP?). Are you running it into any specific cab?
James Freeman
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Into my diy 1x12, sounds good at loud apartment volumes but maybe will not have enough juice at band volume or compared to 50w of tube power.
DLC86
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Sure, there needs to be a difference in sound otherwise it's just magic. My point is that those differences are often tiny and only really perceivable when actually playing.
To make a clearer example, imagine hearing a sample during which someone is turning on and off a gentle compression carefully level matched with the dry signal: as a listener you'd probably have a hard time picking out the points where the comp gets engaged or disengaged (if there are no pops, jumps or added noise when doing so), cuz your brain will probably attribute all the variations in dynamics to the execution itself, or better said, it doesn't know what to attribute to the execution and what to the compression. The player otoh would definitely know when it's on or off cuz it will perceive the sound reacting in a different way to the dynamics of his playing.
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Yes, now you're getting it! Quite why it is okay for you to use the word "feel" in EXACTLY THE SAME CONTEXT as everyone else has done, whilst at the same time saying all the other anti-feel stuff you've said before.... well that is anyone's guess... but hey.... you do you.
I explicitly said otherwise and conceeded this point many times.
Deaf people exist. Sorry you hate them.
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I get what you're saying, but I've tried all of that. The class D amps I've tried all lacked low end power, resonance, impact, punch, whatever word you wanna use.Somehow I've missed this long thread until now and I just finished reading it all (I know, I'm a masochist), so I'll give my 2¢ (which will be pretty long, so I'm sadist as well
Regarding feel, I pretty much agree with a post from @Orvillain , for me it is not just sound and the effect it has on our body and ears, but also how it reacts to playing and to the feedback circuit created when playing at a high enough volume.
What makes you feel "connected" with a real amp or even a good modeler (for me) imho is how the (real or virtual) amp reacts to all the small nuances of your playing, how notes bloom when you dig in, how palm mutes thump when you hit the strings in the right spot and with the right pick angle, how the tone gets rounder when you play softly, the speed with which it reacts to all this (i.e. transient response), etc.
And the reason you can't perceive this "feel" when you're not playing in first person is cuz you don't have information about how the hand is moving, so you just hear the final result without knowing what's the "input".
Same way as you can't tell how a car feels to drive by watching someone else driving it, you're simply not part of that "feedback loop".
Where I disagree with Orvillain is that the feel of a tube amp can't be matched by a modeler thru a class D power amp. It's not easy to do so but it's definitely feasible imho:
Firstly, obviously you need a power amp that can deliver the same wattage as your tube amp continuously, if your tube head is 100w the class D amp probably needs to be rated at 400 or 500 W at the impedance of your cab.
In my case, the most powerful tube amp I've ever owned was a hiwatt 50 W head and that was already unmanageable for the levels I usually play at, thru a 2x12. More recently I also had the little 20W EL84-based version which was perfect for my needs.
Currently I run my fm9 thru a diy built Icepower (basically the same thing you find inside the SD powerstage) 125asx2, which is stereo though and 2x125W into 4Ω or 2x65W into 8Ω. Continuous power is rated at 65W into 4Ω and 70W into 8Ω.
If you want you can check the specs for the SD PS170 too, just look for the 50asx2 datasheet.
(EDIT: just checked and it's rated for 50W at 4Ω and 100W at 8Ω
A while back I measured with my multimeter the output voltage with a sine wave at the same maximum level I usually run my presets for the max out knob position I use, just to check if I was running everything within specs... and it turned out I never ever went past 25W per channel (the speakers in my cab are pretty efficient though), so in that case I have plenty of headroom on the power amp to not push it thru its limits and maybe even to avoid the phenomena Cliff and Jay described about the power supply.
Secondly, a very important part is to try to match the impedance curve in the modeler to the one of your real cab, I am lucky to have the curve of one of my cabs included in the Fractal firmware, when it was added a few years ago it made a night and day difference in the feel department and I bet that might be the #1 reason why most don't gel with modelers thru SS amps.
For the cabs I currently use I don't have the exact curves in the fm9, but I measured them anyway and tried to replicate them by editing the parameters, and I can say that once you manage to match the low resonance(s) you're 90% there. So I suggest all interested in trying that, there's a thread in the fractal forum where it's explained how to measure impedance curves with REW.
And no, trying to find the low resonant frequency just by playing chugga-chugga as was suggested years ago (even by Cliff) doesn't work, it's more likely you'll find a room mode with that method.
Third and last step is to fine tune some speaker related parameters.
Speaker compliance basically makes the impedance curve become dynamic, increasing it makes the resonant frequencies shift as you play, and I guess that might be part of why we perceive cabs as "lively" when paired with tube amps.
Speaker comp, when output mode is set to "SS PA + Cab", actually counteracts the thermal compression the real speaker has when it is driven by a SS power amp, as that is MORE than the compression it'd have with a tube power amp, so that parameter makes the sound more "bouncy" and dynamic.
With all these tweaks in the end I managed to match the feel of my tube amps pretty closely and maybe make it even better for my taste. Ymmv
The one time it actually seemed okay was when I used a bass cab, which was quite interesting. It wasn't even anything special. It was an old Marshall 4x10, and that was the singular time where I got what I wanted from a modeller plus class D amp. It was the Quad Cortex and Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200.
I did some impulse responses with the Duncan Powerstage 200 too, and I really like those. So my assumption has always been that what I'm missing in most situations with those amps is some sort of impedance relationship or interaction.
DLC86
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My diy version doesn't have any eq and it can keep up pretty easily with loud drummers and tube amps, when using a single 2x12, when I use two (4 ohms) I can easily bury the drummer.
But a lot also depends on the speakers you're using, as I said previously I have very efficient speakers in my cab, Fane FHG12-150 which are basically the made in China version of the Medusa 150 and have a sensitivity of 103 dB, to give you an idea that's 6 dB higher than a typical creamback (so it's like having 4x the available wattage compared to those) 5 dB higher than a greenback and 3 dB higher than a v30 (aka like doubling the wattage).
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So that's another variable... all of a sudden to have the perfect digital hybrid rig, I have to change my speakers as well.
Nosiree. I aint doin' it. I ain't doin' it.
DLC86
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Not necessarily, you can just pick up a more powerful power amp.
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Once I'm done with my Japan trip next month, I might pick up a 700watter Powerstage and check it out. If it still sounds like absolute arsecandy, then I will forever more consign class D to the waste paperbin of life!
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Imo quality class ab amps are pretty close. And together with advanced features like impedance curve simulations it might work but it always seems to be a moving target. Limit to infinity sort of .. ( obviously )
Can’t wait for axe fx 4 to see what else they find
And the expected memeing: “yeah well but you never tried this new feature so you don’t know what you’re talking about”
Can’t wait for axe fx 4 to see what else they find
And the expected memeing: “yeah well but you never tried this new feature so you don’t know what you’re talking about”
DLC86
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I don't recall if you already mentioned in the thread what impedance and speaker configuration your cab has, but in some cases you can increase the available watts of what you currently have just by rewiring the cab.
E.g. if it's a 16 ohm 4x12 cab it likely has 16 ohm speakers inside, with 2 pairs wired in parallel but the 2 speakers within each pair wired in series, to give you the final 16 ohm.
Just by rewiring it so that all 4 speakers are in parallel with a total impedance of 4 ohms, you'd basically multiply by 4 the available wattage from the power amp.
Same if you have a 16 ohm 2x12 cab, it probably has 8 ohms speaker wired in series, by changing that to a parallel connection you'd get 4 ohms and 4x the power.
PS: the powerstage definitely can, but in general always check if your power amp can handle a 4 ohm load before doing so, cuz not all power amps or modes of operation (e.g. bridged mono) can.
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DLC86
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It seems the thread I was talking about was deleted for some reason, and that's a shame cuz it contained a whole lot of useful info, I also had shared there a diagram for a box to make the connections described in the link @yeky83 shared easier, I need to see if I have it saved somewhere on my PC.
EDIT: there's still a partial cached version of that thread
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