This might be the end of digital for me

Sitting here in front of my 2012 Mac Mini, typing this on my Android. I think I've had two Android phones (one replaced and one model upgrade) since I bought the Mac used in 2017.

I still have never owned a laptop :bag

Sometimes I wish the childcare industry required me to have a company laptop :poop: 🥄
 
There’s nothing tribal about this, dude. You asked what there is to miss. I said what I’d miss. What’s so difficult to understand about that?
Don’t get the mention of FCP? I’d miss it.

I meant, we're strictly talking recording music, right?

Anyway, it's all good. Logic is definitely a good DAW. Glad it suits your workflow.
 
Buy a cheap Intel Macbook or Mini and use OpenCore Patcher to install a current version of Mac OS X. I'm running my DAW and Rig Manager under Mojave on a Mac Pro 3,1 (2008). Maybe a bit slow to start, but everything works just fine. Circa-2015/16 Macbook Pros are quite inexpensive.

Well, you'd have to get familiar with OpenCore, re-patch things every now and then - and in the end, it'll be over pretty soon. The day Apple feels they don't need to support the last line of Intel Mac Pros anymore (which, at least on paper, could be any day soon), OpenCore will be legacy for any Intel Macs.

Seriously, IMO all that isn't worth it. Just get a cheap Windows laptop for any such tasks.
 
What makes Macs superior for recording? Not being snarky just truly don't know
It mainly comes down to if you really, really like Logic Pro. And to be fair, it's very good and offers a ton for the money.

Other reasons might be that MacOS's default CoreAudio drivers are better than the equivalent Windows ones, with lower latency etc. Dedicated ASIO drivers are pretty much mandatory on Windows. That said, many audio interfaces still have proprietary drivers for MacOS too so the actual situation might be exactly the same.

I use an ITX size Windows desktop PC and have a decked out M2 Max Macbook Pro 16" provided by work. Generally the difference between the two becomes a "win some, lose some" thing where MacOS does some things nicer, Windows does other things better, but ultimately there isn't a whole lot of difference and it comes down to user preference.

I have a hard time recommending Apple unless you get one via work. While their laptops are some of the best in the business, they price gouge 5-20x higher prices for RAM and disk space than what those components actually cost, while providing a poor base specs for the money. European prices have also gone through the roof, the just released M3 Macs are several hundred euros more expensive for the same spec I got at the start of the year, without providing any true improvements.
 
What makes Macs superior for recording? Not being snarky just truly don't know

@laxu already answered most of it. Core Audio seems to be a much more robust protocol than even some dedicated ASIO drivers on Windows. Sure, most interfaces come with their dedicated drivers, but sometimes Core Audio outperforms them. Example: Our beloved L6 HX family. Coming with the lousiest interface drivers ever seen on earth, Core Audio allows you to run all things HX at roughly half (!) the latency (too bad you lose some other features, such as easily using different samplerates). On Windows, Asio4All sometimes does the same kinda thing, but it's way less robust.

Core Audio also has multiclient-ability built in. So you can just open up as many programs as you like and have them use the same low latency audio protocol. Under Windows, multiclient ASIO operation is still rare.

Also, there's the socalled "aggregate devices". macOS offers an option to virtually combine any number of audio interfaces connected and have that combination show up as a single device in your DAW. This can be excellent sometimes. Even without digitally syncing the two stereo I/O interfaces I had at that time (for professional operation, you would likely want to sync them), I was able to record 4 tracks at once, which was just great for a vox, doublebass, git/vox trio. I also used this occasionally when I wanted to quickly add the Helix to my usually used interface, so I could feed different monitors for patch design purposes without any recabling issues.

In general, while there's certainly some exceptions, Core Audio (including low latency operation by nature) really "just works".

Also, while not necessarily superior for recording per se, but especially in case you're starting out: Garageband comes free with any Mac. And there's nothing even remotely comparable in the Windows world (and yes, I am aware of Cakewalk). GB is very easy to get into, comes with built in tutorial stuff and allows you to get started in pretty much no time (especially given that low latency performance is built into the system). And yet, it's still quite capable. There's also a 1:1 compatible version for iOS.
But that's not all there is to it. Once you outgrow GB, you can switch to Logic. It'll load your GB projects absolutely identically (GB is using the same core code as Logic by now) - and it's also looking sufficiently similar so you won't have a tough time to do this next step (by default, some advanced settings sometimes confusing new users are even switched off in Logic, so it'll feel even more familiar compared to GB).
Seriously, all that is such a clever eco-system, it's tough to beat. Even some 8y old kids can already have fun slapping some loops together in GB on an iPad (and yeah, they may even learn a thing or two instead of just clicking around) and as there's always a direct path to the next bigger thing, you will never outgrow things.
Add to this that Logic is still less than 250 bucks - and at least so far, you only pay once and get all updates for free (no idea whether that may change one day, the recently released Logic/iOS version turned out to be a subscription model already, so we may see more of that creeping into the Apple-verse). I bought Logic Pro X in 2014 I think (I owned all previous versions starting with 3.0 too, back into their Windows days...) and haven't paid a single penny for any update. And there's been tremendous updates ever since. So, at least on paper, you could use all the money saved here (most other companies charge you at least around 100 bucks a year for updates, should you want/need to stay up to date) to buy the next Mac - and end up not paying more than for a comparable Windows system.

Speaking of the latter: There really aren't comparable Windows systems, at least not in the laptop world. Look at a Macbook Air. NO (!) moving parts inside anymore, which obviously is fantastic, there's no (potentially noisy) fans anymore, sucking dust into the machine, degrading functionality (and adding noise) after a while. Also, battery life is just fantastic. In case you don't go too wild, a MBA should cover an entire day of full work without having to look for a power outlet (and it's getting only better with the "sister" model, namely the smallest Macbook Pro, which is offering yet noticeably longer battery life).

Now, I sound like an Apple ad. In fact, I'm the polar opposite. I hate many things Apple with a passion. I'm typing this here on a 2010 Mac Pro, possibly the best consumer computer ever designed. Regarding performance, It'd likely be fine to suit my needs until the end of my days. But by now, I pretty much need to purchase something new, simply because it's not supported by Apple anymore.
Yeah, I could possible "hack" some more life into it using OpenCore, but as I'm still involved in some betatesting here and there, that's not a great idea.
I could as well just "freeze" the computer and keep using it as is. And while that's something I will do at some point in time, it's simply not suitable for a computer you're also using for internet activities. For instance, I already can't install the latest versions of some browsers on this machine anymore, as they're requiring a later OS version. That's pretty bad. So far, I'm doing fine, though, but EOL for this machine is getting much closer.

Fwiw, that planned obsolescence thing is something Apple is a true master of. Always have been like that, regardless whether it's their computers, their phones or their tablets. They will render them obsolete at one point in time, even in case there's zero technical reasons.
Now, I can understand that to a certain extent, after all, Apple lives off hardware sales, their own software is just way too cheap to generate any decent profit (see Logic). But in a world where sustainability is one of *the* key things we should take care of, I'd much rather pay whatever kind of fee and be allowed to use my computer a lot longer (as long as there's no technical reasons for support to become unrealistic).
As things are right now, when you buy a computer from Apple, they more or less guarantee you 5 years of full software support. After that, it might be game over. Now, you can usually keep using older macOS versions for a while, but let's have a look at Logic. The current version requires an OS no older than the second to latest version - so that's one year back, which you could add to those 5 years. So that's 6 years of a fully supported Logic, no more. Sure, you can keep working with an older version, but once there's reasons for you to be up to date, you'll have to buy a new computer. And there's little choices but to buy another Mac because by now you're deep in their ecosystem.
Etc.
In my book, all this sucks big time. Personally, I more or less need to stick with Apple, but I don't particularly like it.

Ooops, that got long...
 
No need to worry about drivers. Plug an audio interface in and it works. Plug a midi controller in and it works.

And the cost of the Mac is balanced out by the low price of GarageBand and Logic given not just how good each is for recording, but also how much content each of them come with.
 
but also how much content each of them come with.

Yeah, forgot about that - the content coming especially with Logic, is just staggering. Unless you're a full stop movie composer (hence writing orchestral things and what not), you may never need anything else but what's coming with it. Oh well, you *do* need another amp sim plugin (in case you're doing guitar sounds that way) because Amp Designer still sucks as much as it gets (I know, there's one or the other decent clean-ish sounds to be found, but that was about it).
 
All this blather about work laptops…

My employer is, I assure, more draconian than any in terms of controlling what can be installed and done on work computer - I’ve even had a preferred wired USB trackball that I couldn’t get to work without going through multiple people and getting an exemption form signed. People have have been fired for unauthorized use of hardware where the evidence presented to them showed the employer is not afraid to pull “this is what your mouse was doing between 2pm and 3:45pm last Wednesday; care to explain?”

It didn’t take me long to actually prefer this approach - to the extent that it’s annoying, it is more than balanced by the fact that a big part of the blurring of the line between “work life” and “personal life” is based on hardware. Even though the majority of our employees telework, nobody expects anyone to be seeing an email after 5pm because everyone knows the work computer has to hardwired to the internet through a specific VPN router and so nobody has their laptop out in front of them unless they are sitting at their workstation, nobody has a work issued mobile device, and nobody can get work email on their personal devices. It’s awesome. Work issued laptops and phones are NOT a benefit, IMO.
 
Speaking of the latter: There really aren't comparable Windows systems, at least not in the laptop world. Look at a Macbook Air. NO (!) moving parts inside anymore, which obviously is fantastic, there's no (potentially noisy) fans anymore, sucking dust into the machine, degrading functionality (and adding noise) after a while. Also, battery life is just fantastic. In case you don't go too wild, a MBA should cover an entire day of full work without having to look for a power outlet (and it's getting only better with the "sister" model, namely the smallest Macbook Pro, which is offering yet noticeably longer battery life).
With the laptops the caveat is that nothing is upgradeable/replaceable, not even disk drive. So you better get a spec that is good enough for you, which probably means Apple will upsell you on 400+ euro updates just to have a better RAM/disk space spec than a typical PC 10 years ago.

I was looking to get my spouse a reliable laptop earlier this year because her Razer Blade 15" piece of shit (seriously, one of the worst purchases we've ever made!) was about to blow out its second battery and was having issues staying on without power. I considered Apple M1/M2 to be the only sensible option that is going to last a long time and generally work.

I was thinking of the M2 Air but when I started adding up all the extra charges to the base spec for more disk space, more RAM since she loves to have a ton (and I mean a ton!) of browser tabs open. It was much more sensible to buy a 14" M1 Macbook Pro on sale + student discounts, which ended up at about the same price as an updated M2 Air but massively better all around. The only complaint for me is that the M1 HDMI port is only 2.0 spec whereas M2 is HDMI 2.1 so it's more compatible with 4K high refresh rate displays.

Now, I sound like an Apple ad. In fact, I'm the polar opposite. I hate many things Apple with a passion. I'm typing this here on a 2010 Mac Pro, possibly the best consumer computer ever designed. Regarding performance, It'd likely be fine to suit my needs until the end of my days. But by now, I pretty much need to purchase something new, simply because it's not supported by Apple anymore.
If Apple laptops are great - provided you pay the extra for a good spec - the desktop side is the opposite. The Mini and Studio make little sense to me because they don't do anything that much better than the Macbook Pros, so better to buy a laptop that is also a very good HDR display and portable. I run mine mostly as a desktop system anyway.

Yeah, I could possible "hack" some more life into it using OpenCore, but as I'm still involved in some betatesting here and there, that's not a great idea.
I could as well just "freeze" the computer and keep using it as is. And while that's something I will do at some point in time, it's simply not suitable for a computer you're also using for internet activities. For instance, I already can't install the latest versions of some browsers on this machine anymore, as they're requiring a later OS version. That's pretty bad. So far, I'm doing fine, though, but EOL for this machine is getting much closer.

Fwiw, that planned obsolescence thing is something Apple is a true master of. Always have been like that, regardless whether it's their computers, their phones or their tablets. They will render them obsolete at one point in time, even in case there's zero technical reasons.
I used to run Hackintosh on a desktop PC and the reason I gave up on it was that dual booting to Windows was a chore and keeping the Hackintosh running over MacOS updates was a hassle. Long term OS compatibility on MacOS was bad already on Intel machines for no real good reason other than Apple not wanting to provide support. With everything transitioned to Apple's own ARM processors, we will probably see Intel compatibility beyond virtual machines and Rosetta translation layers getting stripped out eventually.

The M1/2/3 series are an absolutely massive improvement over the Intel ones though. Just the lack of noise is so nice and on the laptops the battery life is excellent. But for cost, atm it's best to wait for M2 sales now that the new M3 series is out. Black Friday deals are probably around the corner.
 
My employer is, I assure, more draconian than any in terms of controlling what can be installed and done on work computer - I’ve even had a preferred wired USB trackball that I couldn’t get to work without going through multiple people and getting an exemption form signed. People have have been fired for unauthorized use of hardware where the evidence presented to them showed the employer is not afraid to pull “this is what your mouse was doing between 2pm and 3:45pm last Wednesday; care to explain?”
This is the kind of micromanagement that would make me change companies in the blink of an eye. As an IT consultant I really appreciate the flexibility in how and when I work. It lets me do things like go handle a personal thing in the middle of the day as long as there's no meetings at that time. Then I can work later, or if I want I can work longer hours one day and then go home (so to speak, I work from home 90%) earlier on another day. The only things people care about are that things get done. And that still leaves me time to write this post as I am running some automated tests in the background.

It didn’t take me long to actually prefer this approach - to the extent that it’s annoying, it is more than balanced by the fact that a big part of the blurring of the line between “work life” and “personal life” is based on hardware. Even though the majority of our employees telework, nobody expects anyone to be seeing an email after 5pm because everyone knows the work computer has to hardwired to the internet through a specific VPN router and so nobody has their laptop out in front of them unless they are sitting at their workstation, nobody has a work issued mobile device, and nobody can get work email on their personal devices. It’s awesome. Work issued laptops and phones are NOT a benefit, IMO.
I don't know if the work culture is different were you live, but here in Finland work/life balance has been very good in the companies I've worked for. This might be because I'm in the IT consultant bubble, but so far none of the client (ranging from startups to various large organizations) or my company's managers have been emailing or calling after office hours.

So the only divide between work and personal is what you make of it - and that can be difficult for some where they go "oh I'll just do this one work thing since it's open already." I just turn off any Slack/Teams/email etc apps after I am done with the working day and have the rest (browsers, terminals, development tools etc) running on separate virtual desktops where they can be out of sight, out of mind.
 
F.W.I.W ...... RME USB 2 Interface with RME Drivers ... with even a mid-level PC or Laptop running W11 ..... pick your DAW of choice ..... ultra-low-latency with zero pops, clicks, crackles .......more tracks than you will ever need ..... totally, utterly and positively un-crashable.

Ben
 
This is the kind of micromanagement that would make me change companies in the blink of an eye. As an IT consultant I really appreciate the flexibility in how and when I work. It lets me do things like go handle a personal thing in the middle of the day as long as there's no meetings at that time. Then I can work later, or if I want I can work longer hours one day and then go home (so to speak, I work from home 90%) earlier on another day. The only things people care about are that things get done. And that still leaves me time to write this post as I am running some automated tests in the background.


I don't know if the work culture is different were you live, but here in Finland work/life balance has been very good in the companies I've worked for. This might be because I'm in the IT consultant bubble, but so far none of the client (ranging from startups to various large organizations) or my company's managers have been emailing or calling after office hours.

So the only divide between work and personal is what you make of it - and that can be difficult for some where they go "oh I'll just do this one work thing since it's open already." I just turn off any Slack/Teams/email etc apps after I am done with the working day and have the rest (browsers, terminals, development tools etc) running on separate virtual desktops where they can be out of sight, out of mind.
Meh, my work is not in IT or anything where being able to customize my work computer has any benefits - all my work is done through organization-specific databases and/or custom-tweaked organization-specific versions of Microsoft products (or any of several web browsers that are installed). If I need to do something personal, want to stream some music or video - I just turn to my personal laptop sitting next to my work computer. I had the same setup when I was working on-site with no complaints from anyone.

I can work anytime between 5 am and midnight and don’t really have to have a set schedule - most of my work is pretty independent. When I hop out to go taxi the kids around or run an errand - I am completely checked out. I’m not fiddling with my work phone replying to a dumb email that doesn’t really need to be replied to.

While there are strict regulations on my work-issued hardware, I have a ton of freedom in how I do the actual work with those above me having loads of trust in my work-product.

Nitpicking about what I can do with hardware given to me by my employer that doesn’t at all stand in the way of how I do the work I’m employed (and compensated very well) to do seems a little like bitching about fractal user interface - musicians that are making a living performing and recording music never talk about the UI, but instead about the work they are able to create with the thing.
 
Nitpicking about what I can do with hardware given to me by my employer that doesn’t at all stand in the way of how I do the work I’m employed (and compensated very well) to do seems a little like bitching about fractal user interface - musicians that are making a living performing and recording music never talk about the UI, but instead about the work they are able to create with the thing.
The Shade GIF by Pepsi
 
With the laptops the caveat is that nothing is upgradeable/replaceable, not even disk drive. So you better get a spec that is good enough for you, which probably means Apple will upsell you on 400+ euro updates just to have a better RAM/disk space spec than a typical PC 10 years ago.

Uh... don't. Even! GET. MEEEE. STAAAAARTED!!!

Seriously, while I could even understand that there might be reasons for Apple to have different frames to connect the SSDs to their mainboards, while I could even force myself into accepting some reasons (even if their BS) why SSDs have to be soldered in (WHAT.THE... okok, I won't go into that), something that is just not acceptable is their upgrade prices. To take you from 512GB to 2TB internal SSD space, Apple is asking you SIX-HUNDRED-AND-NINETY Euros!!!
What the heck? Did they, unknown to the rest of the world, all of a sudden reinvent the SSD?
No. From all that is know, the ones Apple is using are of pretty decent quality but nothing outstanding. Possibly comparable to a Samsung 990 Pro M2. They're somewhat less than €200. So, where's those additional €500 coming from? Well, we don't know. But I know for sure where they're going to. Straight into Apple's ever so greedy maw.
My 2008 Macbook has 2TB worth of SSD space in it (on 2 1TB drives - something possible back in the day, another thing I defenitely miss) already. Since several years even, and I did't have to rob a bank. They're Samsung EVOs and were around 150 each back then when I bought the second one.

The Mini and Studio make little sense to me because they don't do anything that much better than the Macbook Pros,

Well, depending on your needs, a MINI might be a decent choice. If I only needed a stationary computer, I'd likely get a mini with 16GB and 1TB (around €1.4k) and had no need for any additional HUBs (defenitely a must in case I'd use a laptop as a desktop replacement). I already have a suitable monitor, key/mouse as well, would only have to add some better external drive box suitable for the SSDs now living inside my Mac.
Considerably more affordable than the 3k I'd have to spend on a Macbook Air /w 2TB of diskspace (and I'd need that much because I want to have my sample library accessible at all times without having to connect anything else).

With everything transitioned to Apple's own ARM processors, we will probably see Intel compatibility beyond virtual machines and Rosetta translation layers getting stripped out eventually.

What will be interesting to see is how Apple and 3rd party folks will be dealing with support.
Given compatibility, at least according to Apples fullmouthed advertisements, ARM should add a new meaning to "future proof". So, in theory, they wouldn't have to break backwards compatibility as if there was no tomorrow anymore. Which is exactly what they're doing right now every other bunch of years.
Cutting of backwards compatibility is something good to add huge amounts of hidden costs for Apple users. Want to keep running your NI Komplete package on an up to date macOS? Well, get your wallet out every 1-3 years.
But it's not only that. NI even being a prime example of how shitty you can treat your users. Because instead of updating existing versions, they will rather come up with new versions (sometimes even way worse than their predecessors - yeah, looking at you, Battery 4, you ugly piece of feature degraded BS, programmed by what must be the highest morons NI could come across!). Which automatically means that you can't load any older projects properly anymore. Wow, great - they're making big bucks by selling you shitty updates while breaking backwards compatibility! Way to go! Btw, there's exceptions from this, such as the most lovely guys at U-He. Zebra 2 is fully supported under all macOSes back reaching back to Leopard. No update fees ever since, full backwards compatibility. Same with MFM2. Urs is a true gentleman. Polar opposite of greedy Tim Cook.
 
Sorry ... but I could'nt resist .... and yes ... I know it has nothing to do with this thread but its good for a laugh / cry ...... in case anyone ever wanted any evidence that Apple has zero care or interest in their consumers ... I present to you the following ... and no these are not a joke:-

=> the $999 Mac Pro Stand

=> the $699 Mac Pro Wheels

=> $1200 for 2 x 32 Gig Sticks of DDR 4 RAM

Yes ...... there actually is a company I despise more than NDSP ! :)

Ben
 
What makes Macs superior for recording? Not being snarky just truly don't know
Honestly, nothing. I really don't want to get sucked into a tit for tat, but there is nothing inherently superior to using a Mac for recording, unless you are really addicted to using Logic X.

I own both, so have no real skin in the comparison game. But anyone claiming that Mac's are inherently superior just doesn't have any grounding in reality.

Other reasons might be that MacOS's default CoreAudio drivers are better than the equivalent Windows ones, with lower latency etc.
That is actually not true. CoreAudio makes more calls to the kernel, resulting in higher latency than Windows in general:

 
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