Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[BenIfin]

Unless form Factor is *critical* ...... a 2nd hand toaster / rack / stage is a no-brainier compared to the player ... i.m.h.o.

Ben

 

[BenIfin]

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.

If you can borrow one ... that is %1000 the way to go ... definitely borrow it .... do a full USB Backup .... then wipe everything of it .... just load the latest OS ... and only load the [free] 3 pro-made L.P Packs direct from the Kemper Website .... no risk :) .... like I always say ... don't trust my ears or hands .... I could well be a dumb-f%ck with cardboard ears and wear gloves when playing .... :) ... you know what I mean .... one persons treasure could very easily be another persons trash !

And yep ... you're right about Kemper ... all of this stuff is in the forums etc.... but it takes heaps of f%cking time to dig through the sh%t and get to the right info directly from C.K or the official mods ... who all really do know their Kemper stuff .....quite the opposite of how I would expect a German company to operate .... and I'm from "she'll be right mate" Australia ... and it makes us look positively Swedish'ly-efficient ..... and we sure-as-sh$t aint :).

Ben

 

[JasonE]

I'll bite. To me Fractal is at the absolute top of the heap with especially their reverb, delay and modulation effects, in the same category where Strymon, Source Audio, Universal Audio or Eventide reside.

If we take a typical reverb, regardless of type, from any of these companies and compare it to "lesser" counterparts, there is usually more "dimension" and fidelity to the sound on the better stuff. Doesn't matter if it's running in mono, that quality is still there. I feel by comparison e.g Line6 bounces between "good" and "alright" depending on the effect type and whether it's mono or stereo.

These are kinda hard to explain the difference so the best way is to simply listen to comparisons or try some of these yourself. Fractal's room reverbs to me tend to sound more natural than many others, their plate reverbs have that character that you want from a reverb like that and their ambient reverbs challenge anything I can get from my Strymon Nightsky, which is no a small feat.

I don't feel Fractals delays always hit the mark - the quality is there, but they are a bit difficult to work with compared to a dedicated pedal. I much prefer working my Strymon Volante or even the SA Collider, even though the Fractal can sound just as good.

I don't have enough experience with Kemper fx to say that much about them, but every time I've heard them in person, they are in that category of "fine", but not "spectacular". Usable, but not blowing you away. That's not always a bad thing - I think for example the Strymon Flint is one of the best "meat and potatoes" verbs out there, but it doesn't compare to better springs, plates and halls from Fractal, or Source Audio. But it never bothers you, it never gets in the way by being too prominent etc. Those are valuable qualities too.

I would first like to thank you for an honest, not attacking, reply with some facts. You are the first person that has ever answered this question without a personal attack when I have asked it and I appreciate that.

I am a very light reverb user. I don't really use any really deep ambient tones. For live playing reverb can be a liability so I keep in very light. I have reverb in my amp and tend to use that. When recording I tend to use reverb and delay from within the DAW. Since I have the Kemper and the FM9, I will have to do some comparisons on this to see what is there.

 

[JasonE]

Clearly not.

To everyone else; I already posted my report on Kemper versus QC and ToneX accuracy. It is pretty clear cut. Plenty of other people have posted examples and data too.


I actually agree to some extent, particularly being a delay fiend. But you know what... cards on the table time.... both @FractalAudio and @Digital Igloo and the Line6 team have always taken feedback seriously. Fractal consistently respond to user demands, and Cliff is always trying to achieve excellence in everything he does, and my admiration for him because of that couldn't be any higher. I'd be proud to call him my boss if I worked for him.

With the Line6er's I understand there are many more bean counters in the chain. I reported bugs with the delays in the past, and they were fixed, and many of the newly added effects at the very least seemed to be in line with requests I made on Ideascale, and when they added the JCM800, I was convinced that they're not just a corporation pushing old IP in new funny shaped boxes.

Kemper? Not so much. Christophe did respond directly to some email exchanges we had, and I commend him for that. But his basic attitude was that he thought the profiling was as accurate as it needed to be, and that even if he could perceive differences in the data I sent him, he didn't really seem to care. That must be true, because the only improvements to the profiling tech that have ever been talked about are from back in 2012/2013 when they improved the accuracy of the low-end, and when they reduced the aliasing. In all other respects, they are one of the least responsive to user feedback companies that I've come across.

Which is why I no longer own a device.

Can you reply to anything without a personal attack? I don't really care what random people on the internet think about the things I like. Again, when people like Michael Britt are playing big gigs using a Kemper and love it, they can't be as bad as some folks try to make it out to be. If you don't like it, that is your opinion and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. It doesn't mean everyone else shares it or that yours is the only right opinion. For my uses, the Kemper works well and sound good, to me. If you are just going to reply with another personal attack, don't. I am done with this exchange if the attack continue.

 

[Orvillain]

Can you reply to anything without a personal attack?

Grow a pair.

Again, when people like Michael Britt are playing big gigs using a Kemper and love it, they can't be as bad as some folks try to make it out to be.

Don't care. Literally nothing to do with my points at all.

If you don't like it, that is your opinion and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. It doesn't mean everyone else shares it or that yours is the only right opinion.

I never said I don't like it. As I said - I'd pick a Kemper versus QC for the whole experience. But again, that has nothing to do with my point at all.

For my uses, the Kemper works well and sound good, to me. If you are just going to reply with another personal attack, don't. I am done with this exchange if the attack continue.

I don't care if you're done or not. You're not going to shut me up with feigned offense.

 

[paisleywookiee]

And yep ... you're right about Kemper ... all of this stuff is in the forums etc.... but it takes heaps of f%cking time to dig through the sh%t and get to the right info directly from C.K or the official mods ... who all really do know their Kemper stuff .....quite the opposite of how I would expect a German company to operate .... and I'm from "she'll be right mate" Australia ... and it makes us look positively Swedish'ly-efficient ..... and we sure-as-sh$t aint :).

if only they had a Yek.

 

[Deadpan]

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.

Kemper takes the stance of use your ears.

They provide real time comparison to the real amp.

You would need to continue to refine until you match the real amp when comparing them in profiling mode.

 

[DrewJD82]

Can you reply to anything without a personal attack? I don't really care what random people on the internet think about the things I like. Again, when people like Michael Britt are playing big gigs using a Kemper and love it, they can't be as bad as some folks try to make it out to be. If you don't like it, that is your opinion and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. It doesn't mean everyone else shares it or that yours is the only right opinion. For my uses, the Kemper works well and sound good, to me. If you are just going to reply with another personal attack, don't. I am done with this exchange if the attack continue.

There was a personal attack in the post you quoted?

 

[Mongillo19]

There was a personal attack in the post you quoted?

Probably that Kemper isnt as accurate as other devices

 

[DrewJD82]

Probably that Kemper isnt as accurate as other devices

I’m not even trying to bust balls here, I’m very curious as to what part of that quote is being perceived as an attack at all, nevertheless a personal one.

 

[JasonE]

Upfront ..... don't read the reveal in comments section of the clip below before playing this video back several times.

Not gonna debate or argue which is "measurably better" or anything like that .... I'm well aware of the null tests and spectral deep dives etc.... or what each person prefers ... we all hear and feel things differently ..... and that is humanly unavoidable physiologically .... its all good :)

I posted this video a few pages back and it sank like a stone ... but its quite indicative:-

NAM v Tonex v Kemper v Real Amp

This isnt in any way a dig at anyone ... but I would defy anyone ... including the head "golden ears" at Line 6 or Fractal or Kemper to identify which is the Real Amp and which are the others.

Its 12+ years old .... but for raw Amp tones its as good as anything out there despite all the current AI stuff ... to my ears and hands .. still the gold standard.

No wonder its still the 1st choice for '000's of recording studios and touring bands globally.

Astonishing really when you think about it.

Ben

It is the raw amp tones that I really like in the Kemper. I own two Fractal units a Kemper and another older unit. I just like the raw amp feel of the Kemper. It feels like my amps. I am mainly an amp guy. I had to do a ton of adjusting to try to get the amps to sound and feel like the Kemper on the other units and I still couldn't quite get them there. I am not someone who can't operate technology either. I have worked in technology for many years and I have a lot of experience with mixing in both analog and digital worlds. It isn't for the lack of knowledge and ability to understand how to adjust things. My amps are always my first choice with a pedalboard. If I go digital, I like the Kemper first. There are other uses where the Fractal works better for me.

Owning multiple devices is what makes me scratch my head a little when people are ready to jump into a deathmatch over a device. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They all work better for some people than others. If it sounds good, it is good. People will fight to the death over which is better when they don't even know the use case someone is using the device for.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I don't know what everyone else's experience is, but having spent a lot of time with a Kemper, it's pretty dogshit at capturing Mark, Recto, and other Mesa Boogie tones. Not even close. Everyone always posts up "hey, look how good it captures a Plexi!"

Yay.

IMO, Kemper should combine what he has already pioneered, and mix it in with ML to get an even better product, instead of releasing expensive accessories for his decade-old box.

 

[yeky83]

Interesting. Could you expand on this?? What has changed?? I've seen no reports thus far of any tonality changes, just "workflow" changes in a way.

Nothing's changed. Liquid Profiles sound the same as regular profiles, the Kemper mids are still there.

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

I don't think they're overly secretive or vague... but they do seem to just let their ardent users run around making up magical stuff about the Kemper, like the LP sounding different. The Kemper forum is full of this stuff, and all it would take to stop it would be for a staff to come in and say once, "no that's not how it works."

 

[JasonE]

There was a personal attack in the post you quoted?

It has been an inferred attack. He is telling me that my ears are clearly not working correctly because I don't hear things the way he does. I see where things are going so I called it out before it gets out of hand. His last reply is just more of the same. I get it. He hates Kemper. That is his opinion and he is entitled to it. I am done replying.

 

[Orvillain]

Kemper takes the stance of use your ears.

They provide real time comparison to the real amp.

You would need to continue to refine until you match the real amp when comparing them in profiling mode.

Which to me is a massive cop-out on their part to be honest. I believe they take this stance to attempt to avoid criticism about their capturing tech. But all it does is muddy the waters. You even get people claiming that you have to profile a "certain way" - like the "professionals" - in order to get an accurate capture. And quite frankly, I don't believe M.Britt and Co. are getting accurate captures. I think they're getting close enough, and then they sell their profiles.... and lets be honest, how would anyone even know. Unless you were there at the capturing session, you wouldn't.

When you make a NAM profile, you get a chart at the end of it that tells you how close your capture is to the original signal. When it is something ridiculous like 0.0062, you know beyond a shadow of doubt that it is accurate to what you fed it. Doesn't mean it'll sound good of course.

I really really REALLY think people are getting the wrong impression here - I am NOT talking about whether things sound good or not. I'm talking exclusively about accuracy. You really cannot expect 11+ year old technology to keep up with 1-3 year technology. That just isn't how the music tech space works at all.

Whether you enjoy the sounds or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Orvillain]

It has been an inferred attack. He is telling me that my ears are clearly not working correctly because I don't hear things the way he does. I see where things are going so I called it out before it gets out of hand. His last reply is just more of the same. I get it. He hates Kemper. That is his opinion and he is entitled to it. I am done replying.

Okay, right. So... inferred attacks is it?

Well... when you said this:

I don't care what measuring devices say. I go with what my ears hear.

I took that as a fundamentalist religious attack upon science and our democratic secular society and I was extremely offended. I even cried. You should apologize to me.




(Do you see how "inferred attack" is complete nonsense now?)

 

[Orvillain]

Nothing's changed. Liquid Profiles sound the same as regular profiles, the Kemper mids are still there.

I don't think they're overly secretive or vague... but they do seem to just let their ardent users run around making up magical stuff about the Kemper, like the LP sounding different. The Kemper forum is full of this stuff, and all it would take to stop it would be for a staff to come in and say once, "no that's not how it works."

Interesting to hear that difference of opinion. Hmmmmmmm. Benny Elffin isn't usually prone to hyperbole. I'm still interested to check it out. Even though I hate Kemper. Because I'm a massively interred h8r. Or something.

 

[paisleywookiee]

It has been an inferred attack. He is telling me that my ears are clearly not working correctly because I don't hear things the way he does. I see where things are going so I called it out before it gets out of hand. His last reply is just more of the same. I get it. He hates Kemper. That is his opinion and he is entitled to it. I am done replying.

 

[Byrdman]

On a different note, no talking-no shilling-just playing...


I'm bout 3/4 of the way through and it sounds pretty good so far to me. Still not something I need right now for $700. YMMV

 

[DLC86]

On a different note, no talking-no shilling-just playing...


I'm bout 3/4 of the way through and it sounds pretty good so far to me. Still not something I need right now for $700. YMMV

This video (the first 6-7 minutes at least) showcases pretty well what I always dislike whenever I play thru a kemper: that cocked-wah sound across all profiles and that piezo-like attack. Am I the only one hearing this? Tone in itself is not bad at all, it's just that I'm never able to dial out those two things (I don't own a kemper, a friend of mine does and from time to time he lets me give it a shot)