Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[Orvillain]

There are so many variables to captures/profiles that, in the end, there can not be a proven fact.

It would help if we knew what the variables were. But Kemper can't even tell us that. Even after 11 years. Astonishing really when you think about it. Go and read the Kemper manual on how the refinement works - it is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

[Orvillain]

NAM v Tonex v Kemper v Real Amp

So listening on a laptop here, I heard something "off" with C. It sounded more unique than the others. Haven't read any comments yet.

 

[Orvillain]

Right, so C was the real amp. My ears fuckin' work. I can tell the difference between tones, no question. Even on a bloody laptop.

 

[Orvillain]

And with all that said, I've successfully talked myself out of any GAS I may have had for this Player thing!

 

[riffy]

I don't know what was what. But to MY ears, A and B were the closest sounding to each other. C and D were both different.
D sounded like a softer highs and high mids version of C.

 

[riffy]

Now that I have read the reveal. I don't know if my ears suck or not. I prefered the Kemper and Tonex, to the real amp and Nam...

 

[riffy]

Upfront ..... don't read the reveal in comments section of the clip below before playing this video back several times.

Not gonna debate or argue which is "measurably better" or anything like that .... I'm well aware of the null tests and spectral deep dives etc.... or what each person prefers ... we all hear and feel things differently ..... and that is humanly unavoidable physiologically .... its all good :)

I posted this video a few pages back and it sank like a stone ... but its quite indicative:-

NAM v Tonex v Kemper v Real Amp

This isnt in any way a dig at anyone ... but I would defy anyone ... including the head "golden ears" at Line 6 or Fractal or Kemper to identify which is the Real Amp and which are the others.

Its 12+ years old .... but for raw Amp tones its as good as anything out there despite all the current AI stuff ... to my ears and hands .. still the gold standard.

No wonder its still the 1st choice for '000's of recording studios and touring bands globally.

Astonishing really when you think about it.

Ben

Right, so C was the real amp. My ears fuckin' work. I can tell the difference between tones, no question. Even on a bloody laptop.

I hope mine work too. I didn't know what was what till I read the reveal. I could hear distinct differences in all of them, but as I said, the Kemper and Tonex sounded closest to each other to me.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Christophe did respond directly to some email exchanges we had, and I commend him for that. But his basic attitude was that he thought the profiling was as accurate as it needed to be, and that even if he could perceive differences in the data I sent him, he didn't really seem to care. That must be true, because the only improvements to the profiling tech that have ever been talked about are from back in 2012/2013 when they improved the accuracy of the low-end, and when they reduced the aliasing. In all other respects, they are one of the least responsive to user feedback companies that I've come across.

Which is why I no longer own a device.

you do realize no one makes an amp or a modeler or an anything that pleases everyone, right?
So the fact that you see a big problem in the data you sent Kemper, and he doesn’t, proves nothing.
If the problem was anywhere near as big as you want everyone to believe it would be a problem Kemper would have to do something about. Instead they keep selling them and people keep buying and using them with great success.

it’s ok, there are lots of good choices. The Player is great for me. Not for you. We both get to make music we like and chances are very good that people in the audience don’t think about the accuracy of our amp simulation devices! Lol
if you like what you use you will play better. The same is true for others, even if you think their choice is proven to be ‘less accurate’!
Jimi Hendrix made himself into a legend by making extremely inaccurate sounds from his guitar and amps. I think we will all be ok no matter what the charts and graphs tell you.

 

[Mongillo19]

 

[BenIfin]

So listening on a laptop here, I heard something "off" with C. It sounded more unique than the others. Haven't read any comments yet.

Right, so C was the real amp. My ears fuckin' work. I can tell the difference between tones, no question. Even on a bloody laptop.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/bti8MlUsMwciibZKSV" width="480" height="270" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

[timbuck3]

lol

 

[[Nathan]]

Captures and Modelling will just never be the real thing (for better or worse). We used to split hairs over the final 20% gap between digital vs real amps and now we're splitting hairs over the last 1-2%. To me all of these devices just come down to price, workflow, ecosystem, feature sets and selfishly how slick of a unit they are.

It's so fascinating the lens you look at all of this stuff through. From a studio workflow point of view the KPP is expensive, limited functionality and has no capture ability, virtually makes no sense compared to a toaster (if that even makes sense these days) (.... we can do arguably the best profiling technology for $0 if that's the route we wanted to go with NAM). But from a gigging point of view its a rugged pedal, small, plays back tons of tried and tested tones, gets the job done... sure its pricey but maybe it fits in with your existing pedalboard better than a full blown modeller, would make total sense in that scenario.

I have 0 use for one and I still kind of think its on the pricey and limited side of things. I guess time will tell how many of these are to be seen in 6/12/24 months and if we see the price drop / features added at no cost.

 

[BenIfin]

..... now we're splitting hairs over the last 1-2%. To me all of these devices just come down to price, workflow, ecosystem, feature sets and selfishly how slick of a unit they are.

I could not agree with this more ... there is always personal human / player / ear preferences which are irreconcilable from person to person ..... and that is a great thing ... otherwise we'd all be using the same gear.

Ben

 

[Orvillain]

you do realize no one makes an amp or a modeler or an anything that pleases everyone, right?
So the fact that you see a big problem in the data you sent Kemper, and he doesn’t, proves nothing.
If the problem was anywhere near as big as you want everyone to believe it would be a problem Kemper would have to do something about. Instead they keep selling them and people keep buying and using them with great success.

it’s ok, there are lots of good choices. The Player is great for me. Not for you. We both get to make music we like and chances are very good that people in the audience don’t think about the accuracy of our amp simulation devices! Lol
if you like what you use you will play better. The same is true for others, even if you think their choice is proven to be ‘less accurate’!
Jimi Hendrix made himself into a legend by making extremely inaccurate sounds from his guitar and amps. I think we will all be ok no matter what the charts and graphs tell you.

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

 

[Orvillain]

Join us. We are legion.

 

[SeeD]

I’m really confused about the price complaints…


What did everyone expect?

New Firmware ?

 

[Sedaxel]

I trust numbers and science. That makes me agree with Orvillain. Kemper has the less accurate profiling currently.

However, and please take into account that I KNOW that my ears are not in their prime (getting old, you know), I have a hard time distinguishing tones from NAM, NeuralPi and Mooer MNRS, all of them playing my own amp profiles.

When I tried MNRS with my own amp profile, I was amazed. Then, I tried NeuralPi... and thought it was even better. But went back to MNRS and said... "hey, I don´t know what to think... would I be able to pick one or the other in a blind playing test???". Still don´t know the answer to that question. And that means something, I guess.

Then Tried NAM, and thought it was even better. But again... went back to the other two and was not so sure about my own perception.

My buddy says that, if it´s so difficult to distinguish tones, then it´s not worth to keep on searching for anything else.

I play sometimes with Tonocracy and find it excellent. Same with TH-U rig player... for me it´s awesome. They say they are just Kemper profiles, and it seems to be true (same parameters, same comercial profiles, same reference input gain than kemper...).

So for me, the profiling game is now in another stage. Static profiles are already great, and every brand can inclulde it in their hardware units (which obviously is going to happen soon). BUT, it´s time to improve the thing. And, IMO, that´s what Kemper has started to do with Liquid Profiling. It´s the next natural step, getting static profiles to work better when tweaked. Only Kemper has started to walk that way. The rest are still behind, I guess it´s because Kemper still has advantage thanks to have been the pioneer in this field.

While We all are here discussing about the quality of static profiles, We´re already talking about old tech, and missing the long view situation of profiling tech.

 

[Orvillain]

So for me, the profiling game is now in another stage. Static profiles are already great, and every brand can inclulde it in their hardware units (which obviously is going to happen soon). BUT, it´s time to improve the thing. And, IMO, that´s what Kemper has started to do with Liquid Profiling. It´s the next natural step, getting static profiles to work better when tweaked. Only Kemper has started to walk that way. The rest are still behind, I guess it´s because Kemper still has advantage thanks to have been the pioneer in this field.

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

 

[DrewJD82]

I gotta chuckle at the similarities between the TMP accuracy discussion and this one, that only took a few posts before we got to “the audience doesn’t care” and “fuck your golden ears”

 

[Sedaxel]

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

Yeah, maybe NDSP is doing that. Guitar ML was doing that in NeuralPi conditioned profiles.

I don´t know either if Liquid Profiles are much better than static ones. I guess it´s their first step in a long path that has to be walked. It´ll get some time to get that tech working perfectly. But hey, they´ve started to walk while I´m feeling something like if the rest were in the mud, fihting for the "most accurate profiles" medal, and losing the long term target. And if this is so and I´m right, I guess that CK would be smiling, working in going further with his tech, while the rest are fighting among each other in a somehow sterile war. Just speculating here, of course.

At the end, profiling and modelling will converge to get almost the same result.