Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[Orvillain]

you do realize no one makes an amp or a modeler or an anything that pleases everyone, right?
So the fact that you see a big problem in the data you sent Kemper, and he doesn’t, proves nothing.
If the problem was anywhere near as big as you want everyone to believe it would be a problem Kemper would have to do something about. Instead they keep selling them and people keep buying and using them with great success.

it’s ok, there are lots of good choices. The Player is great for me. Not for you. We both get to make music we like and chances are very good that people in the audience don’t think about the accuracy of our amp simulation devices! Lol
if you like what you use you will play better. The same is true for others, even if you think their choice is proven to be ‘less accurate’!
Jimi Hendrix made himself into a legend by making extremely inaccurate sounds from his guitar and amps. I think we will all be ok no matter what the charts and graphs tell you.

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

 

[Orvillain]

Join us. We are legion.

 

[SeeD]

I’m really confused about the price complaints…


What did everyone expect?

New Firmware ?

 

[Sedaxel]

I trust numbers and science. That makes me agree with Orvillain. Kemper has the less accurate profiling currently.

However, and please take into account that I KNOW that my ears are not in their prime (getting old, you know), I have a hard time distinguishing tones from NAM, NeuralPi and Mooer MNRS, all of them playing my own amp profiles.

When I tried MNRS with my own amp profile, I was amazed. Then, I tried NeuralPi... and thought it was even better. But went back to MNRS and said... "hey, I don´t know what to think... would I be able to pick one or the other in a blind playing test???". Still don´t know the answer to that question. And that means something, I guess.

Then Tried NAM, and thought it was even better. But again... went back to the other two and was not so sure about my own perception.

My buddy says that, if it´s so difficult to distinguish tones, then it´s not worth to keep on searching for anything else.

I play sometimes with Tonocracy and find it excellent. Same with TH-U rig player... for me it´s awesome. They say they are just Kemper profiles, and it seems to be true (same parameters, same comercial profiles, same reference input gain than kemper...).

So for me, the profiling game is now in another stage. Static profiles are already great, and every brand can inclulde it in their hardware units (which obviously is going to happen soon). BUT, it´s time to improve the thing. And, IMO, that´s what Kemper has started to do with Liquid Profiling. It´s the next natural step, getting static profiles to work better when tweaked. Only Kemper has started to walk that way. The rest are still behind, I guess it´s because Kemper still has advantage thanks to have been the pioneer in this field.

While We all are here discussing about the quality of static profiles, We´re already talking about old tech, and missing the long view situation of profiling tech.

 

[Orvillain]

So for me, the profiling game is now in another stage. Static profiles are already great, and every brand can inclulde it in their hardware units (which obviously is going to happen soon). BUT, it´s time to improve the thing. And, IMO, that´s what Kemper has started to do with Liquid Profiling. It´s the next natural step, getting static profiles to work better when tweaked. Only Kemper has started to walk that way. The rest are still behind, I guess it´s because Kemper still has advantage thanks to have been the pioneer in this field.

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

 

[DrewJD82]

I gotta chuckle at the similarities between the TMP accuracy discussion and this one, that only took a few posts before we got to “the audience doesn’t care” and “fuck your golden ears”

 

[Sedaxel]

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

Yeah, maybe NDSP is doing that. Guitar ML was doing that in NeuralPi conditioned profiles.

I don´t know either if Liquid Profiles are much better than static ones. I guess it´s their first step in a long path that has to be walked. It´ll get some time to get that tech working perfectly. But hey, they´ve started to walk while I´m feeling something like if the rest were in the mud, fihting for the "most accurate profiles" medal, and losing the long term target. And if this is so and I´m right, I guess that CK would be smiling, working in going further with his tech, while the rest are fighting among each other in a somehow sterile war. Just speculating here, of course.

At the end, profiling and modelling will converge to get almost the same result.

 

[Sedaxel]

I gotta chuckle at the similarities between the TMP accuracy discussion and this one, that only took a few posts before we got to “the audience doesn’t care” and “fuck your golden ears”

Yeah, I thought the same. LOL.

Just in case, I stated clearly that I think Kemper is less accurate than the rest of profilers.

That said, I can´t easily catch differences between profilers, while I can do it fairly easy on those vids of the TMP against others.

Additionally, I find ugly (to say the less) to price over the top a much inferior modeling technology.

So, I guess it´s perfectly justified to keep on chosing the Kemper if someone likes it more than other "more accurate" profilers, because the differrence is barely noticeably (I´m sure some will notice it... I seriously doubt that I could notice it), and they keep on researching (Liquid Profiling). Nothing to do with the "if it sounds good to you, it doesn´t matter" Fendery thing.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

You are correct I ‘didn’t get it’. I think I’ve been reacting to the complaints some people have been shouting about ‘Kemper is doing it wrong‘…’they are lying and going to turn Kemper into IK AmpliTube style subscription service’ … ‘it’s decades old tech and not as good as X, Y, Z’ etc

i shouldn’t have framed your point as a part of that chorus. My apologies. I really need to take my own advice and stop helping.

I have been on a quest, for years, to find a device that is small enough to ride in the gig bag guitar case, work as a stand alone high quality amp, cab sims and basic effects unit, USB audio interface, headphone out, has ability to create and access presets and can be the ‘amp replacement’ in a pedal board rig. (Yes, I know, HX Stomp. For some reason I didn’t like it enough to keep it)
I’ve spent a lot of money chasing that set of requirements.

I am truly impressed with the Kemper Player, it hits all the marks and cost less than lots of the solutions I’ve tried.
So then I see the ridiculous arguments against Kemper decision to offer the Player.
So I guess I was consumed with pushing back against misrepresentation and hyperbole and I assumed you were a part of it.
again, my apologies.

 

[Orvillain]

You are correct I ‘didn’t get it’. I think I’ve been reacting to the reaction some people have been shouting about ‘Kemper is doing it wrong‘…’they are lying and going to turn Kemper into IK AmpliTube style subscription service’ … ‘it’s decades old tech and not as good as X, Y, Z’ etc

i shouldn’t have framed your point as a part of that chorus. My apologies. I really need to take my own advice and stop helping.

I have been on a quest to find a device that is small enough to ride in the gig bag guitar case, work as a stand alone high quality amp, cab sims and basic effects unit, USB audio interface, headphone out, has ability to create and access presets and can be the ‘amp replacement’ in a pedal board rig.
I’ve spent a lot of money chasing that set of requirements.

I am truly impressed with the Kemper Player, it hits all the marks and cost less than lots of the solutions I’ve tried.
So then I see the often ridiculous arguments against Kemper decision to offer the Player.
So I guess I was consumed with pushing back against misrepresentation and hyperbole and I assumed you were a part of it.
again, my apologies.

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

 

[DrewJD82]

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

Totally unrelated, but one of my buddies were giving me shit last night for using a lot of plugins in my mixes, when I pulled up the most recent one to throw back in his face, I basically use Logic like an SSL board with 2 outboard delays and 2 compressors.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, not exactly too relevant for this discussion (if relevant at all...), but for me accuracy of Kemper profiles has never been a thing at all. Just as accuracy of component based modeling has never been a thing for me (ok, it actually has been, but these times are quite a while ago by now).
All I want is nice sounds to work when playing live or recording. Both the Kemper and whatever component based modelers deliver them in spades.
Hence, for me it all boils down to user friendliness and usability. The big Kempers are pretty excellent regarding these aspects and that's been the very reason I was always having them on whatever lists. Seeing that this small, pedalboard friendly version cripples just this very aspect of quality, is really pissing me off, especially as they could've easily been doing better. And in case they did, I'd even sort of happily (well, not really, but still...) pay whatever stupid upgrade fees to get the full deal.

 

[Orvillain]

Totally unrelated, but one of my buddies were giving me shit last night for using a lot of plugins in my mixes, when I pulled up the most recent one to throw back in his face, I basically use Logic like an SSL board with 2 outboard delays and 2 compressors.

Push him into a ravine.

 

[Orvillain]

And in case they did, I'd even sort of happily

This will never happen. We won't allow it.

 

[BenIfin]

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

There is absolutely no doubt - and it can be empirically, repeatedly demonstrated that if you use a "real amp" as a base for accuracy then very roughly:-

=> Real Amp = 100 / 100
=> NAM = 97 / 100
=> Kemper = 94 / 100

I'm spit-balling here, but you get the gist ..... ^^ the order of these differences / rankings is not subjective .. it just is.

Can you audibly hear / "feel" them (?) .... no idea .... the answer to that would be different for every person.

Do these differences matter with respect to your own ears and own hands .... again ....the answer to that would be different for every person.

Orvillain ...re: Liquid Profiling all I can add it as follows:-

-> before my multiple Fractals / Helix's / Tonex ... I was a multi-year Kemper user
-> I left the format for 3 reasons .... (a) I needed more EFX Slots (b) I never really "liked" the way the Gain control worked and (c) I could never quite get rid of the Kemper "mid-range-compressed-hump" finger-print

Once C.K announced L.P ... I took a chance

-> I don't use many efx anymore so that was fine
-> the Kemper finger-print "mid-range-compressed-hump" is totally gone
-> the L.P. Gain / EQ Tone Stacks work fantastically well ..... it really does feel like you are adjusting controls on a real Amp .... I'm not saying they are perfect ... but these so-far limited number of Pro L.P's do feel, sound and respond in an utterly authentic manner

As a very satisfied Stage user using the currently very limited number of "pro" L.P's ..... I would *not* get a Player for one simple reason .... other than "Definition".... the Amp block has had all the other Deep Editing parameters removed ..... these are *critical* to getting you that last %5 you want and will need.

All the best,
Ben

PS:- As a side note .... In the last 12 months or so I have gravitated more and more towards "non-real-Amp-modelling" ..... I just re-bought a used GT1000 Core and I forgot just how f%cking amazing the Boss "original" amps are ... the touch sensitivity and dynamics are off-the-freakin-charts - nothing I've ever used has come close ..... you turn a control and it does pretty-much-nothing-but good things ..... they have "modelled-out" the crap. Many, many, many people crave and want the "warts and all" ....... me ...... I say f$ck that ...... I just want a great sounding tone that I can make my own with as little "pain" / tweaking as possible ..... I suspect I'm the minority though.

 

[Orvillain]

I never really "liked" the way the Gain control worked

No, nor me. It always felt like it had much finer taper than any real amp I've ever played, and it made lining up 12 o'clock (for example) with a real amp, quite difficult. But I guess this has been addressed now by the Kemper requesting you to set the controls to where they are on the original amp during the profiling stage?

the Kemper finger-print "mid-range-compressed-hump" is totally gone

Interesting. Could you expand on this?? What has changed?? I've seen no reports thus far of any tonality changes, just "workflow" changes in a way.

the L.P. Gain / EQ Tone Stacks work fantastically well ..... it really does feel like you are adjusting controls on a real Amp .... I'm not saying they are perfect ... but these so-far limited number of Pro L.P's do feel, sound and respond in an utterly authentic manner

Interesting. I'd be keen to try it again, as I said. Which when you compare the used prices of your bog standard non-powered toaster, which look to be around the £800-£900 mark, then for someone like me, the original profiler would be a better bet than the player pedal version.

Could I even dare to buy my 7th Kemper!?!?!

 

[duzie]

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

I don’t know which is worse…
People blabbering on about gear they don’t own or, me reading about it

 

[BenIfin]

Interesting. Could you expand on this?? What has changed?? I've seen no reports thus far of any tonality changes, just "workflow" changes in a way.

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Sorry I cant be any more technical / precise.

Again ... I cant stress this enough ... the deleted deep editing parameters *is* a big thing .... even more-so now with individualised L.P's ...... if you can get a 2nd hand Toaster or Rack or Stage for only a few hundred pounds more and can afford it ..... dont get the Player unless the form factor is critical .... plus you wont take much if any of a "hit" if you dont like it :)

Ben

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Sorry I cant be any more technical / precise.

Again ... I cant stress this enough ... the deleted deep editing parameters *is* a big thing .... even more-so now with individualised L.P's ...... if you can get a 2nd hand Toaster or Rack or Stage for only a few hundred pounds more and can afford it ..... dont get the Player unless the form factor is critical .... plus you wont take much if any of a "hit" if you dont like it :)

Ben

Yeah I'm seeing the toaster as low as a grand.

 

[Orvillain]

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.