Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[Sedaxel]

I gotta chuckle at the similarities between the TMP accuracy discussion and this one, that only took a few posts before we got to “the audience doesn’t care” and “fuck your golden ears”

Yeah, I thought the same. LOL.

Just in case, I stated clearly that I think Kemper is less accurate than the rest of profilers.

That said, I can´t easily catch differences between profilers, while I can do it fairly easy on those vids of the TMP against others.

Additionally, I find ugly (to say the less) to price over the top a much inferior modeling technology.

So, I guess it´s perfectly justified to keep on chosing the Kemper if someone likes it more than other "more accurate" profilers, because the differrence is barely noticeably (I´m sure some will notice it... I seriously doubt that I could notice it), and they keep on researching (Liquid Profiling). Nothing to do with the "if it sounds good to you, it doesn´t matter" Fendery thing.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

You are correct I ‘didn’t get it’. I think I’ve been reacting to the complaints some people have been shouting about ‘Kemper is doing it wrong‘…’they are lying and going to turn Kemper into IK AmpliTube style subscription service’ … ‘it’s decades old tech and not as good as X, Y, Z’ etc

i shouldn’t have framed your point as a part of that chorus. My apologies. I really need to take my own advice and stop helping.

I have been on a quest, for years, to find a device that is small enough to ride in the gig bag guitar case, work as a stand alone high quality amp, cab sims and basic effects unit, USB audio interface, headphone out, has ability to create and access presets and can be the ‘amp replacement’ in a pedal board rig. (Yes, I know, HX Stomp. For some reason I didn’t like it enough to keep it)
I’ve spent a lot of money chasing that set of requirements.

I am truly impressed with the Kemper Player, it hits all the marks and cost less than lots of the solutions I’ve tried.
So then I see the ridiculous arguments against Kemper decision to offer the Player.
So I guess I was consumed with pushing back against misrepresentation and hyperbole and I assumed you were a part of it.
again, my apologies.

 

[Orvillain]

You are correct I ‘didn’t get it’. I think I’ve been reacting to the reaction some people have been shouting about ‘Kemper is doing it wrong‘…’they are lying and going to turn Kemper into IK AmpliTube style subscription service’ … ‘it’s decades old tech and not as good as X, Y, Z’ etc

i shouldn’t have framed your point as a part of that chorus. My apologies. I really need to take my own advice and stop helping.

I have been on a quest to find a device that is small enough to ride in the gig bag guitar case, work as a stand alone high quality amp, cab sims and basic effects unit, USB audio interface, headphone out, has ability to create and access presets and can be the ‘amp replacement’ in a pedal board rig.
I’ve spent a lot of money chasing that set of requirements.

I am truly impressed with the Kemper Player, it hits all the marks and cost less than lots of the solutions I’ve tried.
So then I see the often ridiculous arguments against Kemper decision to offer the Player.
So I guess I was consumed with pushing back against misrepresentation and hyperbole and I assumed you were a part of it.
again, my apologies.

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

 

[DrewJD82]

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

Totally unrelated, but one of my buddies were giving me shit last night for using a lot of plugins in my mixes, when I pulled up the most recent one to throw back in his face, I basically use Logic like an SSL board with 2 outboard delays and 2 compressors.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, not exactly too relevant for this discussion (if relevant at all...), but for me accuracy of Kemper profiles has never been a thing at all. Just as accuracy of component based modeling has never been a thing for me (ok, it actually has been, but these times are quite a while ago by now).
All I want is nice sounds to work when playing live or recording. Both the Kemper and whatever component based modelers deliver them in spades.
Hence, for me it all boils down to user friendliness and usability. The big Kempers are pretty excellent regarding these aspects and that's been the very reason I was always having them on whatever lists. Seeing that this small, pedalboard friendly version cripples just this very aspect of quality, is really pissing me off, especially as they could've easily been doing better. And in case they did, I'd even sort of happily (well, not really, but still...) pay whatever stupid upgrade fees to get the full deal.

 

[Orvillain]

Totally unrelated, but one of my buddies were giving me shit last night for using a lot of plugins in my mixes, when I pulled up the most recent one to throw back in his face, I basically use Logic like an SSL board with 2 outboard delays and 2 compressors.

Push him into a ravine.

 

[Orvillain]

And in case they did, I'd even sort of happily

This will never happen. We won't allow it.

 

[BenIfin]

I don't think you get it.

I'm not saying what people should use. I am merely making empirical claims about accuracy. Nothing more.

Some people don't care about accuracy. Which is fine. But you don't get to make claims about accuracy that are simply not true.

It is a proven fact that the Kemper is not accurate versus some of the more modern competition.

Currently NAM is the most accurate out there for profiling. For most stuff, it is nigh on indistinguishable. But it is open source and no one has yet made a compelling product around it.

This is all completely separate as to whether you or I would use a Kemper or not. I already said as a holistic system, I'd still pick one over the QC.

I'm very curious about trying out liquid profiling. I'd really like to know if it makes how the kemper feels to use, closer to a real amp. Ignoring the accuracy of the base tone for a minute... I'm just curious if a capture of my VH4 would feel more amp-like in terms of EQ and gain controls.

I believe but not 100% sure, that your typical NeuralDSP amp is a collection of captures that they switch between or interpolate between when you tweak parameters.

There is absolutely no doubt - and it can be empirically, repeatedly demonstrated that if you use a "real amp" as a base for accuracy then very roughly:-

=> Real Amp = 100 / 100
=> NAM = 97 / 100
=> Kemper = 94 / 100

I'm spit-balling here, but you get the gist ..... ^^ the order of these differences / rankings is not subjective .. it just is.

Can you audibly hear / "feel" them (?) .... no idea .... the answer to that would be different for every person.

Do these differences matter with respect to your own ears and own hands .... again ....the answer to that would be different for every person.

Orvillain ...re: Liquid Profiling all I can add it as follows:-

-> before my multiple Fractals / Helix's / Tonex ... I was a multi-year Kemper user
-> I left the format for 3 reasons .... (a) I needed more EFX Slots (b) I never really "liked" the way the Gain control worked and (c) I could never quite get rid of the Kemper "mid-range-compressed-hump" finger-print

Once C.K announced L.P ... I took a chance

-> I don't use many efx anymore so that was fine
-> the Kemper finger-print "mid-range-compressed-hump" is totally gone
-> the L.P. Gain / EQ Tone Stacks work fantastically well ..... it really does feel like you are adjusting controls on a real Amp .... I'm not saying they are perfect ... but these so-far limited number of Pro L.P's do feel, sound and respond in an utterly authentic manner

As a very satisfied Stage user using the currently very limited number of "pro" L.P's ..... I would *not* get a Player for one simple reason .... other than "Definition".... the Amp block has had all the other Deep Editing parameters removed ..... these are *critical* to getting you that last %5 you want and will need.

All the best,
Ben

PS:- As a side note .... In the last 12 months or so I have gravitated more and more towards "non-real-Amp-modelling" ..... I just re-bought a used GT1000 Core and I forgot just how f%cking amazing the Boss "original" amps are ... the touch sensitivity and dynamics are off-the-freakin-charts - nothing I've ever used has come close ..... you turn a control and it does pretty-much-nothing-but good things ..... they have "modelled-out" the crap. Many, many, many people crave and want the "warts and all" ....... me ...... I say f$ck that ...... I just want a great sounding tone that I can make my own with as little "pain" / tweaking as possible ..... I suspect I'm the minority though.

 

[Orvillain]

I never really "liked" the way the Gain control worked

No, nor me. It always felt like it had much finer taper than any real amp I've ever played, and it made lining up 12 o'clock (for example) with a real amp, quite difficult. But I guess this has been addressed now by the Kemper requesting you to set the controls to where they are on the original amp during the profiling stage?

the Kemper finger-print "mid-range-compressed-hump" is totally gone

Interesting. Could you expand on this?? What has changed?? I've seen no reports thus far of any tonality changes, just "workflow" changes in a way.

the L.P. Gain / EQ Tone Stacks work fantastically well ..... it really does feel like you are adjusting controls on a real Amp .... I'm not saying they are perfect ... but these so-far limited number of Pro L.P's do feel, sound and respond in an utterly authentic manner

Interesting. I'd be keen to try it again, as I said. Which when you compare the used prices of your bog standard non-powered toaster, which look to be around the £800-£900 mark, then for someone like me, the original profiler would be a better bet than the player pedal version.

Could I even dare to buy my 7th Kemper!?!?!

 

[duzie]

I think the Player is a good product, and part me fancies one to put on my desktop for just quick and easy recording. I generally prefer to record whatever it is, outside of the box, treating the DAW like a tape machine. I find the fewer plugins I'm running, the quicker I make decisions. So having a ton of NDSP/NAM/ToneX instances, even though I have a beast computer to be able to do that ... I'm just not a huge fan of working that way. I'd rather bake stuff into the audio.

At the end of the day, the one thing I am guilty of is blabbing too much online about gear I don't own and probably won't ever own, when in reality I have a few sick valve amps, a loadbox, an AxeIII, and a Helix ... and I really shouldn't be complaining about anything; I should be just getting on with making music!!

I don’t know which is worse…
People blabbering on about gear they don’t own or, me reading about it

 

[BenIfin]

Interesting. Could you expand on this?? What has changed?? I've seen no reports thus far of any tonality changes, just "workflow" changes in a way.

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Sorry I cant be any more technical / precise.

Again ... I cant stress this enough ... the deleted deep editing parameters *is* a big thing .... even more-so now with individualised L.P's ...... if you can get a 2nd hand Toaster or Rack or Stage for only a few hundred pounds more and can afford it ..... dont get the Player unless the form factor is critical .... plus you wont take much if any of a "hit" if you dont like it :)

Ben

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Sorry I cant be any more technical / precise.

Again ... I cant stress this enough ... the deleted deep editing parameters *is* a big thing .... even more-so now with individualised L.P's ...... if you can get a 2nd hand Toaster or Rack or Stage for only a few hundred pounds more and can afford it ..... dont get the Player unless the form factor is critical .... plus you wont take much if any of a "hit" if you dont like it :)

Ben

Yeah I'm seeing the toaster as low as a grand.

 

[Orvillain]

No worries. I don't know the actual technical reasons ..... but as you've owned a "few" :) Kempers .... you'll recall that compressed mid-range hump that all profiles had .... subtle but there.

My un-informed explanation is that all existing Legacy Profiles all use the same "generic" Amp stack ... in fact in the current list of ~45 Liquid Profile Amp "channels" .... "generic" is one of them.

Now with L.P. each Amp is sounding "amp-specific-authentic".

Actually, even if you do a ground up new L.P .... if you leave the controls unchanged and just set the Amp Channel to generic it will sound and respond %100 identically to a Legacy Profile.

It is only once you (a) apply the correct Amp L.P Tonestack used during the L.P process and (b) turn the controls off their Liquid Profile settings ... that the L.P Tonestack "kicks in".

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.

 

[BenIfin]

Unless form Factor is *critical* ...... a 2nd hand toaster / rack / stage is a no-brainier compared to the player ... i.m.h.o.

Ben

 

[BenIfin]

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.

If you can borrow one ... that is %1000 the way to go ... definitely borrow it .... do a full USB Backup .... then wipe everything of it .... just load the latest OS ... and only load the [free] 3 pro-made L.P Packs direct from the Kemper Website .... no risk :) .... like I always say ... don't trust my ears or hands .... I could well be a dumb-f%ck with cardboard ears and wear gloves when playing .... :) ... you know what I mean .... one persons treasure could very easily be another persons trash !

And yep ... you're right about Kemper ... all of this stuff is in the forums etc.... but it takes heaps of f%cking time to dig through the sh%t and get to the right info directly from C.K or the official mods ... who all really do know their Kemper stuff .....quite the opposite of how I would expect a German company to operate .... and I'm from "she'll be right mate" Australia ... and it makes us look positively Swedish'ly-efficient ..... and we sure-as-sh$t aint :).

Ben

 

[JasonE]

I'll bite. To me Fractal is at the absolute top of the heap with especially their reverb, delay and modulation effects, in the same category where Strymon, Source Audio, Universal Audio or Eventide reside.

If we take a typical reverb, regardless of type, from any of these companies and compare it to "lesser" counterparts, there is usually more "dimension" and fidelity to the sound on the better stuff. Doesn't matter if it's running in mono, that quality is still there. I feel by comparison e.g Line6 bounces between "good" and "alright" depending on the effect type and whether it's mono or stereo.

These are kinda hard to explain the difference so the best way is to simply listen to comparisons or try some of these yourself. Fractal's room reverbs to me tend to sound more natural than many others, their plate reverbs have that character that you want from a reverb like that and their ambient reverbs challenge anything I can get from my Strymon Nightsky, which is no a small feat.

I don't feel Fractals delays always hit the mark - the quality is there, but they are a bit difficult to work with compared to a dedicated pedal. I much prefer working my Strymon Volante or even the SA Collider, even though the Fractal can sound just as good.

I don't have enough experience with Kemper fx to say that much about them, but every time I've heard them in person, they are in that category of "fine", but not "spectacular". Usable, but not blowing you away. That's not always a bad thing - I think for example the Strymon Flint is one of the best "meat and potatoes" verbs out there, but it doesn't compare to better springs, plates and halls from Fractal, or Source Audio. But it never bothers you, it never gets in the way by being too prominent etc. Those are valuable qualities too.

I would first like to thank you for an honest, not attacking, reply with some facts. You are the first person that has ever answered this question without a personal attack when I have asked it and I appreciate that.

I am a very light reverb user. I don't really use any really deep ambient tones. For live playing reverb can be a liability so I keep in very light. I have reverb in my amp and tend to use that. When recording I tend to use reverb and delay from within the DAW. Since I have the Kemper and the FM9, I will have to do some comparisons on this to see what is there.

 

[JasonE]

Clearly not.

To everyone else; I already posted my report on Kemper versus QC and ToneX accuracy. It is pretty clear cut. Plenty of other people have posted examples and data too.


I actually agree to some extent, particularly being a delay fiend. But you know what... cards on the table time.... both @FractalAudio and @Digital Igloo and the Line6 team have always taken feedback seriously. Fractal consistently respond to user demands, and Cliff is always trying to achieve excellence in everything he does, and my admiration for him because of that couldn't be any higher. I'd be proud to call him my boss if I worked for him.

With the Line6er's I understand there are many more bean counters in the chain. I reported bugs with the delays in the past, and they were fixed, and many of the newly added effects at the very least seemed to be in line with requests I made on Ideascale, and when they added the JCM800, I was convinced that they're not just a corporation pushing old IP in new funny shaped boxes.

Kemper? Not so much. Christophe did respond directly to some email exchanges we had, and I commend him for that. But his basic attitude was that he thought the profiling was as accurate as it needed to be, and that even if he could perceive differences in the data I sent him, he didn't really seem to care. That must be true, because the only improvements to the profiling tech that have ever been talked about are from back in 2012/2013 when they improved the accuracy of the low-end, and when they reduced the aliasing. In all other respects, they are one of the least responsive to user feedback companies that I've come across.

Which is why I no longer own a device.

Can you reply to anything without a personal attack? I don't really care what random people on the internet think about the things I like. Again, when people like Michael Britt are playing big gigs using a Kemper and love it, they can't be as bad as some folks try to make it out to be. If you don't like it, that is your opinion and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. It doesn't mean everyone else shares it or that yours is the only right opinion. For my uses, the Kemper works well and sound good, to me. If you are just going to reply with another personal attack, don't. I am done with this exchange if the attack continue.

 

[Orvillain]

Can you reply to anything without a personal attack?

Grow a pair.

Again, when people like Michael Britt are playing big gigs using a Kemper and love it, they can't be as bad as some folks try to make it out to be.

Don't care. Literally nothing to do with my points at all.

If you don't like it, that is your opinion and everyone is allowed to have an opinion. It doesn't mean everyone else shares it or that yours is the only right opinion.

I never said I don't like it. As I said - I'd pick a Kemper versus QC for the whole experience. But again, that has nothing to do with my point at all.

For my uses, the Kemper works well and sound good, to me. If you are just going to reply with another personal attack, don't. I am done with this exchange if the attack continue.

I don't care if you're done or not. You're not going to shut me up with feigned offense.

 

[paisleywookiee]

And yep ... you're right about Kemper ... all of this stuff is in the forums etc.... but it takes heaps of f%cking time to dig through the sh%t and get to the right info directly from C.K or the official mods ... who all really do know their Kemper stuff .....quite the opposite of how I would expect a German company to operate .... and I'm from "she'll be right mate" Australia ... and it makes us look positively Swedish'ly-efficient ..... and we sure-as-sh$t aint :).

if only they had a Yek.

 

[Deadpan]

Very interesting. Y'see, this is what I hate about Kemper. They're so fucking secretive. If this is true, why aren't there blogs and manual entries for this kind of stuff? Why don't they give you exact instructions about how to refine, about what levels specifically you should be aiming for when going into the Kemper during profiling, etc etc.

They're incredibly vague, and I find it extremely frustrating.

The one thing that QC, ToneX, and NAM have over Kemper is, no refinement required. So you never introduce any additional insecurity of faith into the system; if I capture an amp with the QC, ToneX, or NAM, and it sucks... I know it wasn't my fault. With Kemper, this isn't true.

But based on what you're saying, it might be worth giving another one a go.... or at least see if I can borrow one.

Kemper takes the stance of use your ears.

They provide real time comparison to the real amp.

You would need to continue to refine until you match the real amp when comparing them in profiling mode.