Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[fazer]

Lol no. Actual data

Again, my question would be ‘produced by whom’? I mean Kemper can make profiles very quickly but can be trained to improve them. We can’t be sure how much effort was made on that front, in my view. I’m not saying the findings are wrong, necessarily, but without knowing whether any bias exists, the exact methodology used, and steps taken to ensure a fair outcome I wouldn’t take anything as ‘proof’.

 

[Mongillo19]

But, on the other hand, your assertion of 'absolutism' is just some words generated on a web site!
So who is 'right'?

People can't seem to sperate that when someone tells them the 10+ year old tech in kemper isnt accurate to the newer stuff that automatically makes the Kemper bad.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that from a strictly data driven standpoint, the Kemper is not as accurate. And if you like the Kemper, who cares? But if someone came up to me and said "I want a product that will be do the best/most accurate representation of my specific amp at specific settings", I wouldn't be recommending the Kemper. There are currently better units to do that job.

Id argue those who put these things to through actual tests and not "well these sounds the same to me!" Are right. Everyone is going to hear something different, the data should be the same every time.

 

[Mongillo19]

Again, my question would be ‘produced by whom’? I mean Kemper can make profiles very quickly but can be trained to improve them. We can’t be sure how much effort was made on that front, in my view. I’m not saying the findings are wrong, necessarily, but without knowing whether any bias exists, the exact methodology used, and steps taken to ensure a fair outcome I wouldn’t take anything as ‘proof’.

The data is out there and that doesn't fall on me to go digging through this forum and Google to show you. If you are interested about it, research it a little during your free time.

 

[fazer]

The data is out there and that doesn't fall on me to go digging through this forum and Google to show you. If you are interested about it, research it a little during your free time.

Well perhaps you should avoid offering it as ‘proof’ then.

 

[Mongillo19]

Well perhaps you should avoid offering it as ‘proof’ then.

Sorry, I'm not going to search through forums and online sources for you.

I don't care that much about this topic and if you don't believe me so be it.

 

[fazer]

Sorry, I'm not going to search through forums and online sources for you.

I don't care that much about this topic and if you don't believe me so be it.

I have researched, which is why I commented. Persuasive, yes, but I saw nothing I would class as ‘proof’.

 

[DLC86]

If you don't hear a difference between the real amp and the kemper profiles in this video then @Orvillain 's previous comment was right, your ears don't work properly.
This video basically proves you can often get a closer match with a Fractal or a Helix even if those don't have an exact model of your amp.

But, otoh, it's also known that the kemper is more accurate with some amp types than others, so sometimes it can be pretty accurate, other times definitely not.

 

[FractalAudio]

Seems the TI chip is ~$47 / 1000 units

$62.21 / 1000

 

[eggpl@nt]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

Are you suggesting Fractal volunteered to pay more than necessary to produce the FMx units, just to impose limitations on the lower-cost hardware?

If what you’re saying were true, would it not have made more sense to pay less by using the same DSP and simply limiting functionality?

FWIW, Cliff has addressed the DSP cost question before. I don’t believe you’re right at all.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Are you suggesting Fractal volunteered to pay more than necessary to produce the FMx units, just to impose limitations on the lower-cost hardware?

If what you’re saying were true, would it not have made more sense to pay less by using the same DSP and simply limiting functionality?

FWIW, Cliff has addressed the DSP cost question before. I don’t believe you’re right at all.

Yes, he better have some proof of that severe claim Fractal crippling DSPs intentionally

 

[eggpl@nt]

Yes, he better have some proof of that severe claim Fractal crippling DSPs intentionally

Eh, it’s not worth getting worked up over it. It’s a braindead take pulled from the nether regions where proof ceases to matter or exist.

Cliff explained on the FAS forum that there are costs beyond the pure cost of the DSP—power management IC’s, heat mitigation, etc. It’s silly to think Fractal paid more to create something less powerful to be sold at a lower price point for product differentiation.

 

[FractalAudio]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

The DSP module in the Axe-Fx III costs us more than the entire cost of an FM3.

Educate yourself before you go making baseless accusations.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

When did you obtain Fractal's actual BOM for their products? That's amazing!

 

[la szum]

Loving the fact we've managed to generate an entire community of business, DSP, and music tech experts!

Haha! There's a meager handful of folks here whose perspective I value and take to heart. The rest? Yeah, not so much.

This thread just confirms that I am on the right track with all of that.

 

[laxu]

I hear people say all the time that the Fractal effects are far superior to the Kemper and other modelers. The thing is, nobody ever puts any specifics to that statement. What is it exactly that you feel is "way superior", with details? If everything about it was far superior, there wouldn't be so many Kempers on the professional stages. There are many. I see more of them in my area than any other unit.

I'll bite. To me Fractal is at the absolute top of the heap with especially their reverb, delay and modulation effects, in the same category where Strymon, Source Audio, Universal Audio or Eventide reside.

If we take a typical reverb, regardless of type, from any of these companies and compare it to "lesser" counterparts, there is usually more "dimension" and fidelity to the sound on the better stuff. Doesn't matter if it's running in mono, that quality is still there. I feel by comparison e.g Line6 bounces between "good" and "alright" depending on the effect type and whether it's mono or stereo.

These are kinda hard to explain the difference so the best way is to simply listen to comparisons or try some of these yourself. Fractal's room reverbs to me tend to sound more natural than many others, their plate reverbs have that character that you want from a reverb like that and their ambient reverbs challenge anything I can get from my Strymon Nightsky, which is no a small feat.

I don't feel Fractals delays always hit the mark - the quality is there, but they are a bit difficult to work with compared to a dedicated pedal. I much prefer working my Strymon Volante or even the SA Collider, even though the Fractal can sound just as good.

I don't have enough experience with Kemper fx to say that much about them, but every time I've heard them in person, they are in that category of "fine", but not "spectacular". Usable, but not blowing you away. That's not always a bad thing - I think for example the Strymon Flint is one of the best "meat and potatoes" verbs out there, but it doesn't compare to better springs, plates and halls from Fractal, or Source Audio. But it never bothers you, it never gets in the way by being too prominent etc. Those are valuable qualities too.

 

[timbuck3]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

tesla does this with battery size: locking down the range for a lower pricepoint and then offering it to be expanded to full capacity later for a cost. Similar no?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, what Kemper seems to plan is similar to how you had to purchase additional models for the POD series from one point on (not sure with which version it started, the XT perhaps?). People never liked that approach too much. Line 6 has changed it with all of their HX series devices. Customers love it and Line 6's modeling line seems to be more popular than ever before.
So why would anyone let Kemper get away with this? Does anyone fear that CK can't pay his bills anymore (I'd take any bet that pretty much the opposite is true)?

 

[Orvillain]

My ears work just fine.

Clearly not.

To everyone else; I already posted my report on Kemper versus QC and ToneX accuracy. It is pretty clear cut. Plenty of other people have posted examples and data too.

I don't feel Fractals delays always hit the mark - the quality is there, but they are a bit difficult to work with compared to a dedicated pedal. I much prefer working my Strymon Volante or even the SA Collider, even though the Fractal can sound just as good.

I actually agree to some extent, particularly being a delay fiend. But you know what... cards on the table time.... both @FractalAudio and @Digital Igloo and the Line6 team have always taken feedback seriously. Fractal consistently respond to user demands, and Cliff is always trying to achieve excellence in everything he does, and my admiration for him because of that couldn't be any higher. I'd be proud to call him my boss if I worked for him.

With the Line6er's I understand there are many more bean counters in the chain. I reported bugs with the delays in the past, and they were fixed, and many of the newly added effects at the very least seemed to be in line with requests I made on Ideascale, and when they added the JCM800, I was convinced that they're not just a corporation pushing old IP in new funny shaped boxes.

Kemper? Not so much. Christophe did respond directly to some email exchanges we had, and I commend him for that. But his basic attitude was that he thought the profiling was as accurate as it needed to be, and that even if he could perceive differences in the data I sent him, he didn't really seem to care. That must be true, because the only improvements to the profiling tech that have ever been talked about are from back in 2012/2013 when they improved the accuracy of the low-end, and when they reduced the aliasing. In all other respects, they are one of the least responsive to user feedback companies that I've come across.

Which is why I no longer own a device.

 

[BenIfin]

Clearly not.

To everyone else; I already posted my report on Kemper versus QC and ToneX accuracy. It is pretty clear cut. Plenty of other people have posted examples and data too.

Upfront ..... don't read the reveal in comments section of the clip below before playing this video back several times.

Not gonna debate or argue which is "measurably better" or anything like that .... I'm well aware of the null tests and spectral deep dives etc.... or what each person prefers ... we all hear and feel things differently ..... and that is humanly unavoidable physiologically .... its all good :)

I posted this video a few pages back and it sank like a stone ... but its quite indicative:-

NAM v Tonex v Kemper v Real Amp

This isnt in any way a dig at anyone ... but I would defy anyone ... including the head "golden ears" at Line 6 or Fractal or Kemper to identify which is the Real Amp and which are the others.

Its 12+ years old .... but for raw Amp tones its as good as anything out there despite all the current AI stuff ... to my ears and hands .. still the gold standard.

No wonder its still the 1st choice for '000's of recording studios and touring bands globally.

Astonishing really when you think about it.

Ben

 

[Deadpan]

Upfront ..... don't read the reveal in comments section of the clip below before playing this video back several times.

Not gonna debate or argue which is "measurably better" or anything like that .... I'm well aware of the null tests and spectral deep dives etc.... or what each person prefers ... we all hear and feel things differently ..... and that is humanly unavoidable physiologically .... its all good :)

I posted this video a few pages back and it sank like a stone ... but its quite indicative:-

NAM v Tonex v Kemper v Real Amp

This isnt in any way a dig at anyone ... but I would defy anyone ... including the head "golden ears" at Line 6 or Fractal or Kemper to identify which is the Real Amp and which are the others.

Its 12+ years old .... but for raw Amp tones its as good as anything out there despite all the current AI stuff ... to my ears and hands .. still the gold standard.

No wonder its still the 1st choice for '000's of recording studios and touring bands globally.

Astonishing really when you think about it.

Ben

Everyone has a perception from their point of view that doesn't exactly align with scientific theory.

There are so many variables to captures/profiles that, in the end, there can not be a proven fact.