Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[fazer]

Out of the major profiling devices, the Kemper is the least accurate. That's a proven fact.

Proven by whom? YouTube influencers?

 

[Sascha Franck]

the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units.

You don't seem to really get it. FAS doesn't artificially limit, say, your choice of drive types. Neither is Line 6. But that's exactly what Kemper is doing.

 

[fazer]

You don't seem to really get it. FAS doesn't artificially limit, say, your choice of drive types. Neither is Line 6. But that's exactly what Kemper is doing.

And it seems, based on a quote from CK posted another user in TOP, that the hardware for this smaller unit is capable of running full Kemper rigs but to get that people will have to pay extra. (I was considering buying one of these but that has put me off for the time being, to be honest.)

 

[Mongillo19]

Proven by whom? YouTube influencers?

Lol no. Actual data

 

[Eagle]

It can still sound good with a good profile as long as you use it straight. As soon as you change anything it starts to sound a bit fake. At the right price with a screen this would be ok even with the decade old tech.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Lol no. Actual data

Data compiled by who and how? And most important, what is the criteria to set benchmarks for the test?

I don't doubt NAMM or some other similar process is in a literal sense *more accurate* but is it practically (as in typical use cases) more accurate to the point the users see/hear/feel a significant difference that makes the Kemper remarkably inferior?

My anecdotal testing has me wondering since I have the good fortune to actually have all the high end modelers and capture/profiling devices plugged in the same room for over a year. I'm just not hearing or 'feeling' anything that has made me abandon any of them. Work flow has shown to be a bigger factor by far for me (*cough* QC *cough* didn't last the year).

Granted I'm a singular anecdotal data point however, your assertion of 'absolutism' is just some words generated on a web site!
So who is 'right'?

 

[fazer]

Lol no. Actual data

Again, my question would be ‘produced by whom’? I mean Kemper can make profiles very quickly but can be trained to improve them. We can’t be sure how much effort was made on that front, in my view. I’m not saying the findings are wrong, necessarily, but without knowing whether any bias exists, the exact methodology used, and steps taken to ensure a fair outcome I wouldn’t take anything as ‘proof’.

 

[Mongillo19]

But, on the other hand, your assertion of 'absolutism' is just some words generated on a web site!
So who is 'right'?

People can't seem to sperate that when someone tells them the 10+ year old tech in kemper isnt accurate to the newer stuff that automatically makes the Kemper bad.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that from a strictly data driven standpoint, the Kemper is not as accurate. And if you like the Kemper, who cares? But if someone came up to me and said "I want a product that will be do the best/most accurate representation of my specific amp at specific settings", I wouldn't be recommending the Kemper. There are currently better units to do that job.

Id argue those who put these things to through actual tests and not "well these sounds the same to me!" Are right. Everyone is going to hear something different, the data should be the same every time.

 

[Mongillo19]

Again, my question would be ‘produced by whom’? I mean Kemper can make profiles very quickly but can be trained to improve them. We can’t be sure how much effort was made on that front, in my view. I’m not saying the findings are wrong, necessarily, but without knowing whether any bias exists, the exact methodology used, and steps taken to ensure a fair outcome I wouldn’t take anything as ‘proof’.

The data is out there and that doesn't fall on me to go digging through this forum and Google to show you. If you are interested about it, research it a little during your free time.

 

[fazer]

The data is out there and that doesn't fall on me to go digging through this forum and Google to show you. If you are interested about it, research it a little during your free time.

Well perhaps you should avoid offering it as ‘proof’ then.

 

[Mongillo19]

Well perhaps you should avoid offering it as ‘proof’ then.

Sorry, I'm not going to search through forums and online sources for you.

I don't care that much about this topic and if you don't believe me so be it.

 

[fazer]

Sorry, I'm not going to search through forums and online sources for you.

I don't care that much about this topic and if you don't believe me so be it.

I have researched, which is why I commented. Persuasive, yes, but I saw nothing I would class as ‘proof’.

 

[DLC86]

If you don't hear a difference between the real amp and the kemper profiles in this video then @Orvillain 's previous comment was right, your ears don't work properly.
This video basically proves you can often get a closer match with a Fractal or a Helix even if those don't have an exact model of your amp.

But, otoh, it's also known that the kemper is more accurate with some amp types than others, so sometimes it can be pretty accurate, other times definitely not.

 

[FractalAudio]

Seems the TI chip is ~$47 / 1000 units

$62.21 / 1000

 

[eggpl@nt]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

Are you suggesting Fractal volunteered to pay more than necessary to produce the FMx units, just to impose limitations on the lower-cost hardware?

If what you’re saying were true, would it not have made more sense to pay less by using the same DSP and simply limiting functionality?

FWIW, Cliff has addressed the DSP cost question before. I don’t believe you’re right at all.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Are you suggesting Fractal volunteered to pay more than necessary to produce the FMx units, just to impose limitations on the lower-cost hardware?

If what you’re saying were true, would it not have made more sense to pay less by using the same DSP and simply limiting functionality?

FWIW, Cliff has addressed the DSP cost question before. I don’t believe you’re right at all.

Yes, he better have some proof of that severe claim Fractal crippling DSPs intentionally

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

oink

 

[eggpl@nt]

Yes, he better have some proof of that severe claim Fractal crippling DSPs intentionally

Eh, it’s not worth getting worked up over it. It’s a braindead take pulled from the nether regions where proof ceases to matter or exist.

Cliff explained on the FAS forum that there are costs beyond the pure cost of the DSP—power management IC’s, heat mitigation, etc. It’s silly to think Fractal paid more to create something less powerful to be sold at a lower price point for product differentiation.

 

[FractalAudio]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

The DSP module in the Axe-Fx III costs us more than the entire cost of an FM3.

Educate yourself before you go making baseless accusations.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

When did you obtain Fractal's actual BOM for their products? That's amazing!