Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, everything in this unit is possibly 100% MIC anyway. The PCB will then likely come pre- soldered, too. So it might just be the final assembly and QA taking place in Germany.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Regardless they still need to be assembled, packaged and shipped all over the world from Germany. All that extra stuff costs money, $399 is a ludicrous price to expect.

i didn't say word one about 399, but assembled, packed and shipped is not a 300€ add on...well 200 since 10 is tax

 

[DrewJD82]

I’m getting Camp Survivor vibes.

 

[nicolasrivera]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

OMG!

Well, today, Fractal sound way way superior to Kemper. So Kemper has a lot of work to do to match the realism of Fractal amps and Fxs

 

[laxu]

Look, my point is that Fractal crippled their hardware to hit a certain price point, but make no mistake, the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units. The crippling in DSP power is not to save money but rather to be able to say that they "don't have enough power" to include the full AX3 capabilities in order to create different market segments.

In fact, it would probably be cheaper for Fractal to just include the AX3 DSP in the FM3 and cripple it software wise since developing both FM3 and AX3 (and FM9) software costs more than what they save on skimping out on FM3 DSP power.

I see no difference in Kemper "locking" certain features from the Player to be able to hit a certain price point and not cannibalize their other products, much like Fractal does with FM3 not to cannibalize FM9 and AX3.

I MUCH prefer the Kemper route where they actually include the full size DSP but lock features. They can then improve on the software for much longer than Fractal can with FM3 without the fear of running out of power. Just look at the original Kemper units, they have received updates for FAAR longer than any Fractal unit.

Don't get me wrong, Fractal makes great products and they sound awesome. It's just different business models.

"So why not use the TI DSPs in everything? Power. The TI DSPs use more power and generate more heat requiring active cooling. They are also more complicated to use requiring dedicated clock generation units, multiple power supplies with specific sequencing requirements, etc."
Quote by Cliff from the Axe-Fx 3 wiki. So it's not just a question of cost. Seems the TI chip is ~$47 / 1000 units and the FM3's ADSP SC587 is ~$36 / 1000 units. Which of course adds up when we are talking about those quantities. I'm sure portings things between architectures bites Fractal in the ass enough as it is and any price differences go out the window there.

Historically Fractal has upgraded their devices due to very real reasons: The Axe-Fx Std/Ultra ran out of firmware upgrade space, the Axe-Fx 2 DSP got discontinued. The "within the same generation" updates are usually just adding more memory, better displays etc. and not particularly relevant for 1st iteration owners.

The SC587 wasn't afaik available when the Axe-Fx 3 came out, and the Axe-Fx 2 TigerSharc DSPs were already one of the fastest options. Had the SC587 been available, Fractal could have made the Axe-Fx 3 and FM9 the same product in a different format and we would have better firmware update parity between all the units.

Kemper using the same tried and true DSP chip on their units makes total sense, it's probably cheap enough nowadays that it's not a problem and saves them any porting effort. I'd expect Kemper to be facing discontinuation of their DSP chip in the upcoming years, on top of becoming outdated by devices with better functionality, sound and easier operation with modern touchscreens and whatnot. But these sort of products from e.g Line6 or Fractal are still a year or two away.

I do think Kemper is again late to the game, just like they were with the Kemper Stage.

 

[JasonE]

OMG!

Well, today, Fractal sound way way superior to Kemper. So Kemper has a lot of work to do to match the realism of Fractal amps and Fxs

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I have an FM9 and a Kemper Stage. I feel that the raw amp tones in the Kemper sound and feel much more like my amps. The Fractal models are higher gain and I can feel and hear the increased compression in them when playing. I like both units a lot but I use them for different purposes. I will pick the Fractal over the Kemper if I am going higher gain. For clean to low gain, and bass, I use the Kemper.

I hear people say all the time that the Fractal effects are far superior to the Kemper and other modelers. The thing is, nobody ever puts any specifics to that statement. What is it exactly that you feel is "way superior", with details? If everything about it was far superior, there wouldn't be so many Kempers on the professional stages. There are many. I see more of them in my area than any other unit.

 

[Mongillo19]

If everything about it was far superior, there wouldn't be so many Kempers on the professional stages. There are many. I see more of them in my area than any other unit.

I think being able to walk into your local GC or ordering from SW MF etc with financing option plays a huge role in this.

You'll really only be exposed to fractal through word of mouth or searching on the Internet. I wont find it pursuing music shops or website like you would Kemper

Out of the major profiling devices, the Kemper is the least accurate. That's a proven fact. We could argue if accuracy=good but the point of a profiler is to capture your amps. The only thing Kemper really has an advantage on (imo) is the maturity of the product and the massive amount of 3rd party profiles.

 

[Orvillain]

Loving the fact we've managed to generate an entire community of business, DSP, and music tech experts!

 

[JasonE]

"So why not use the TI DSPs in everything? Power. The TI DSPs use more power and generate more heat requiring active cooling. They are also more complicated to use requiring dedicated clock generation units, multiple power supplies with specific sequencing requirements, etc."
Quote by Cliff from the Axe-Fx 3 wiki. So it's not just a question of cost. Seems the TI chip is ~$47 / 1000 units and the FM3's ADSP SC587 is ~$36 / 1000 units. Which of course adds up when we are talking about those quantities. I'm sure portings things between architectures bites Fractal in the ass enough as it is and any price differences go out the window there.

Historically Fractal has upgraded their devices due to very real reasons: The Axe-Fx Std/Ultra ran out of firmware upgrade space, the Axe-Fx 2 DSP got discontinued. The "within the same generation" updates are usually just adding more memory, better displays etc. and not particularly relevant for 1st iteration owners.

The SC587 wasn't afaik available when the Axe-Fx 3 came out, and the Axe-Fx 2 TigerSharc DSPs were already one of the fastest options. Had the SC587 been available, Fractal could have made the Axe-Fx 3 and FM9 the same product in a different format and we would have better firmware update parity between all the units.

Kemper using the same tried and true DSP chip on their units makes total sense, it's probably cheap enough nowadays that it's not a problem and saves them any porting effort. I'd expect Kemper to be facing discontinuation of their DSP chip in the upcoming years, on top of becoming outdated by devices with better functionality, sound and easier operation with modern touchscreens and whatnot. But these sort of products from e.g Line6 or Fractal are still a year or two away.

I do think Kemper is again late to the game, just like they were with the Kemper Stage.

I thought I read in a post somewhere, maybe the Kemper forum, that they have secured enough processors to last them for years at this point.

I don't fault them for not having a touch screen. I am not a fan of them and really don't want one, especially on a floor unit. I think the screen on the Kemper Stage is the perfect size for what it is used for. I tend to do most of my setup in the using Rig Manager on my computer and only need the screen for tweaks. It is easy to get whatever effect you want to tweak on the screen and make an adjustment. I think the workflow on the Kemper Stage is pretty good and straight forward.

 

[Antipodes]

Loving the fact we've managed to generate an entire community of business, DSP, and music tech experts!

You've got to get up pretty early in the afternoon to put one over on the TGF!

 

[JasonE]

I think being able to walk into your local GC or ordering from SW MF etc with financing option plays a huge role in this.

You'll really only be exposed to fractal through word of mouth or searching on the Internet. I wont find it pursuing music shops or website like you would Kemper

Out of the major profiling devices, the Kemper is the least accurate. That's a proven fact. We could argue if accuracy=good but the point of a profiler is to capture your amps. The only thing Kemper really has an advantage on (imo) is the maturity of the product and the massive amount of 3rd party profiles.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on those points. I have seen some bands on the bigger stages for events in my area switch from other modelers to a Kemper. I doubt that was all because they walked into a GC and tried one out. I am also in a different camp on the accuracy. I profiled my own amps and with them in the same room, I couldn't tell a difference in the sound of them. I don't know how you get any more accurate than not being able to hear a difference. I don't care what measuring devices say. I go with what my ears hear.

 

[Orvillain]

I am also in a different camp on the accuracy. I profiled my own amps and with them in the same room, I couldn't tell a difference in the sound of them. I don't know how you get any more accurate than not being able to hear a difference. I don't care what measuring devices say. I go with what my ears hear.

Your ears don't work properly.

Soooooooo many people at this point have proven that there are significant differences between a real amp and a profile. This is to be expected. The technology is 11+ years old.

 

[JasonE]

Your ears don't work properly.

Soooooooo many people at this point have proven that there are significant differences between a real amp and a profile. This is to be expected. The technology is 11+ years old.

My ears work just fine. Buy what you like and I will buy what I like. Like I said, I see many Kemper units on big stages. I am not the only one that thinks they sound good.

 

[Orvillain]

I think being able to walk into your local GC or ordering from SW MF etc with financing option plays a huge role in this.

You'll really only be exposed to fractal through word of mouth or searching on the Internet. I wont find it pursuing music shops or website like you would Kemper

Out of the major profiling devices, the Kemper is the least accurate. That's a proven fact. We could argue if accuracy=good but the point of a profiler is to capture your amps. The only thing Kemper really has an advantage on (imo) is the maturity of the product and the massive amount of 3rd party profiles.

Distribution networks are still sooooo much more important than people realise, if you want to get as many unit sales as possible. Fractal are a small company, when it is all said and done. They don't have the resources (and presumably desire?) to tackle the likes of Sweetwater and Guitar Center (shit spelling!)

 

[fazer]

Out of the major profiling devices, the Kemper is the least accurate. That's a proven fact.

Proven by whom? YouTube influencers?

 

[Sascha Franck]

the DSP cost difference between AX3 and FM3 is nowhere near the actual price difference between the two units.

You don't seem to really get it. FAS doesn't artificially limit, say, your choice of drive types. Neither is Line 6. But that's exactly what Kemper is doing.

 

[fazer]

You don't seem to really get it. FAS doesn't artificially limit, say, your choice of drive types. Neither is Line 6. But that's exactly what Kemper is doing.

And it seems, based on a quote from CK posted another user in TOP, that the hardware for this smaller unit is capable of running full Kemper rigs but to get that people will have to pay extra. (I was considering buying one of these but that has put me off for the time being, to be honest.)

 

[Mongillo19]

Proven by whom? YouTube influencers?

Lol no. Actual data

 

[Eagle]

It can still sound good with a good profile as long as you use it straight. As soon as you change anything it starts to sound a bit fake. At the right price with a screen this would be ok even with the decade old tech.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Lol no. Actual data

Data compiled by who and how? And most important, what is the criteria to set benchmarks for the test?

I don't doubt NAMM or some other similar process is in a literal sense *more accurate* but is it practically (as in typical use cases) more accurate to the point the users see/hear/feel a significant difference that makes the Kemper remarkably inferior?

My anecdotal testing has me wondering since I have the good fortune to actually have all the high end modelers and capture/profiling devices plugged in the same room for over a year. I'm just not hearing or 'feeling' anything that has made me abandon any of them. Work flow has shown to be a bigger factor by far for me (*cough* QC *cough* didn't last the year).

Granted I'm a singular anecdotal data point however, your assertion of 'absolutism' is just some words generated on a web site!
So who is 'right'?