Some interesting news from Kemper (Profiler Player)

[Sascha Franck]

Thanks g*d for no screen.

Hey, next up for you: the Air Kemper. Equivalent of an air guitar.
If you love no screens, I'm sure you like no knobs, no switches, no case and - most important - no sound even more! Best of it: you could still praise CK!

 

[Sascha Franck]

I gathered that the proposed user install of stuff (120/240 V power amp Module) which takes power direct from the wall is a big no no in many jurisdictions due to electrical safety certification laws. Why would he lie? The hole in the back was there from Day 1.

So how comes this works for the Camplifier?

 

[Sascha Franck]

If you’re going to use 20 different profiles on this thing you’re likely integrating with a midi switcher that has a screen already

No. I'm not using a MIDI switcher with my HX Stomp, either.

 

[Antipodes]

So how comes this works for the Camplifier?

Am I correct in thinking the Camplifier takes its inputs from the KPA outputs and has separate power supply - so two power leads to the unit with the Camplifier installed?

The Kemper amp unit retro fit and the home brew Ice Power unit installations involve the end user (potentially clueless about electrical safety) digging around in the internal wiring of a device with full line voltage running around in it. Anything like that these days has "No user servicable parts inside" plastered over the outside. Probably for the same reason that convex mirrors have stickers saying like "things may appear further away than in reality" on them. Lawsuits.

The other thing is the Camplifier is a small volume import which just comes in via shipping companies one unit at a time to the end user. What it is and what you do with it is probably not regulated in the same way that a container load of KPAs is when passing through customs with the intention being that it will be sold at retail businesses. I have been told that all kinds of electrical stuff I used to be able to buy - eg cheap dual polarity multi-volt wall wart power supplies (eg 9/12./18 volt) are not able to be sold in Australia anymore under current certification rules. You need to pony up for the superior quality low noise switching power units for $$$.

 

[Sascha Franck]

@Antipodes, it's all a matter of design. You can slap a poweramp into a rack without having a degree in electronics. You can even slap a poweramp into DIY active speaker kits. So no, I don't buy that "required certificates worked against us" thing. They could make more money as is, so that's what they did. All fine with me, but they shouldn't tell me nonsense.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

@Antipodes, it's all a matter of design. You can slap a poweramp into a rack without having a degree in electronics. You can even slap a poweramp into DIY active speaker kits. So no, I don't buy that "required certificates worked against us" thing. They could make more money as is, so that's what they did. All fine with me, but they shouldn't tell me nonsense.

You don't know, you just assume your instinct is correct. You have been wrong about a few other things so far, why not show some grace and civility until you find out? And if then you are proven correct have at it...if wrong then you save yourself, and the conversation, from unnecessary agitation.

 

[laxu]

@Antipodes, it's all a matter of design. You can slap a poweramp into a rack without having a degree in electronics. You can even slap a poweramp into DIY active speaker kits. So no, I don't buy that "required certificates worked against us" thing. They could make more money as is, so that's what they did. All fine with me, but they shouldn't tell me nonsense.

I don't see why they'd lie about it. Certification especially can have some very weird requirements.

There is honestly no benefit to Kemper having to sell separate products for powered/unpowered Toaster and Rack over having a module you can slot into the unit. They lose out on the people who bought the unpowered models and later wanted the poweramp support. They are likely to buy a used PowerToaster/Rack instead of buying a full price poweramp module from Kemper.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You don't know, you just assume your instinct is correct. You have been wrong about a few other things so far, why not show some grace and civility until you find out?

There's nothing to find out about the powered Kemper anymore.
And I have been wrong about one single thing.

 

[Sascha Franck]

They lose out on the people who bought the unpowered models and later wanted the poweramp support. They are likely to buy a used PowerToaster/Rack instead of buying a full price poweramp module from Kemper.

The important thing being that they are likely to buy the full enchilada from Kemper, rather than just a power module.

 

[BenIfin]

From the comfort of owning a Kemper Stage and knowing *nothing* of Kemper's Production, Wholesaling and Retail margins .... my take is perhaps a *better* Player would have been an actual Kemper Amp Player only ... ie:

=> a small Screen
=> Midi I/O PC and CC
=> no efx
=> full Kemper Amp Block Controls
=> full Kemper Cab / IR block Controls
=> full Kemper Input, Noise Gate, Clean Sense and Dist Sense controls
=> [maybe] a Global EQ ... but not necessary
=> No FSW's
=> ideally physically smaller

At a price point of something like $US450 <-> $US500.

To me and my logic ..... $US700 is crazy high for what you get .... and we all now know that additions / extras etc.... will be "paid-for" options.

Just my 2c

Ben

 

[Eagle]

At this point in the life cycle of the technology the product should have been £350 and then it would have been ok as is . The real question is why no total rework of the design and development in the process. Higher resolution better fx and more flexibility in routing. Kemper only sounds good if you use a profile almost as is. Kemper 2 is overdue and I really don’t accept that the original is a done deal, finished, perfect. Kemper two should be a total rework but still in a 3u case but supplied in a head shell. And also a full feature floor unit. The rack should be powered stereo. If they don’t go down this road it’s going to slowly die.

 

[laxu]

At this point in the life cycle of the technology the product should have been £350 and then it would have been ok as is . The real question is why no total rework of the design and development in the process. Higher resolution better fx and more flexibility in routing. Kemper only sounds good if you use a profile almost as is. Kemper 2 is overdue and I really don’t accept that the original is a done deal, finished, perfect. Kemper two should be a total rework but still in a 3u case but supplied in a head shell. And also a full feature floor unit. The rack should be powered stereo. If they don’t go down this road it’s going to slowly die.

My assumption is that something like that is in development.

All the features they've been dropping are things they had already been working on (e.g USB audio support for Toaster/Rack was a feature meant for the Kemper Player) or to combat the competition. What is now known as Liquid Profiling seems like something Kemper was experimenting with years ago so now they just push that out with some polish.

The Kemper Player should bring money in for a few years as they work on a Kemper successor.

But I might be totally wrong because Kemper does not seem to operate like most companies. As much as original owners of the box love that their 10 years old box still gets updated, it seems like a strategy that will ultimately make Kemper sales plummet as better, cheaper capture boxes flood the market. In just a few years we have gone from Kemper and QC being the only players on the market, to cheap Tonex and various NAM-based products.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

...In just a few years we have gone from Kemper and QC being the only players on the market, to cheap Tonex and various NAM-based products.

From Kempers perspective it has been around fifteen years before QC came out and NDSP are still stumbling with the hardware implementation and customer service/reputation. They could get it together but truthfully, if Kemper made a way for the Player to be full featured and profile, be it software companion or upgrade, and the total price was below QC level it would be a critical wound to QC. Kemper having a great effects suite (yes, actually it does compared to QC) and a much more respected company history it would put them well ahead of NDSP in my opinion.

NAMM itself is freeware, with comparable hardware yet to become a reality, so not a competitor.

ToneX is great in a vacuum but IK is being IK....probably trying to figure out how to monetize my having typed IK twice in a sentence instead of figure out how to craft a decent editor/interface. The ToneX pedal is severely limited compared to the Kemper Player and obviously designed hoping you want to buy IK's matching effects pedals. I see ToneX as being what it is and nothing more for as long as it lasts.

So right now Kemper is looking pretty viable and not late after all to the party they started.
I think Tonocracy has a potential to be the new threat to them. Easy and quality capturing process and seemingly developed by a hardware oriented company. Atomic (Tonocracy) has some cloudy customer service history but if a benefit of doubt is given and proven worthy they could be the next phase of 'capture' 'profiler' type hardware/software. Still, they would be the wild card not established pioneer of the profiling/capture niche. A nice competition would certainly benefit us users though!

 

[PorcinePicker]

But I might be totally wrong because Kemper does not seem to operate like most companies.

What Kemper has done over the years has been business smart. After establishing a reputation nearly overnight, they've been very careful not to rock that boat. All of the updates have been small moves, carefully stepping around the "we got it right the first time" premise. All the while, they spent next to nothing on hardware development, and use components that (a) cheap and (b) 100% proven.

I might argue that "Liquid Profiling" was a mistake. Yes, it's an improvement, but conceptually it cracks the shield of infallibility that they cultivated. I suppose they decided that with the number of new competitors in the space, they couldn't coast anymore. I'm not sure where they go now that the 'capture' approach is available in a $100 pedal.

 

[laxu]

From Kempers perspective it has been around fifteen years before QC came out and NDSP are still stumbling with the hardware implementation and customer service/reputation. They could get it together but truthfully, if Kemper made a way for the Player to be full featured and profile, be it software companion or upgrade, and the total price was below QC level it would be a critical wound to QC. Kemper having a great effects suite (yes, actually it does compared to QC) and a much more respected company history it would put them well ahead of NDSP in my opinion.

NAMM itself is freeware, with comparable hardware yet to become a reality, so not a competitor.

ToneX is great in a vacuum but IK is being IK....probably trying to figure out how monetize my having typed IK twice in a sentence instead of figure out how to craft a decent editor/interface. The ToneX pedal is severely limited compared to the Kemper Player and obviously designed hoping you want to buy IK's matching effects pedals. I see ToneX as being what it is and nothing more for as long as it lasts.

So right now Kemper is looking pretty viable and not late after all to the party they started.
I think Tonocracy has a potential to be the new threat to them. Easy and quality capturing process and seemingly developed by a hardware oriented company. Atomic (Tonocracy) has some cloudy customer service history but if a benefit of doubt is given and proven worthy they could be the next phase of 'capture' 'profiler' type hardware/software. Still, they would be the wild card not established pioneer of the profiling/capture niche. A nice competition would certainly benefit us users though!

Yes all of these are flawed products in various ways, but at the same time there's plenty of videos showing Tonex or QC beating Kemper at their own game. That has to count for something. The pricing of Tonex also makes it highly attractive to any newcomers to this stuff.

Kemper has been lucky that the competition has made a bunch of blunders but I feel like they are on borrowed time.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

...The pricing of Tonex also makes it highly attractive to any newcomers to this stuff.

That is the focus of my thoughts, on the newcomers. We here are unusually steeped in the product niche but newcomers are where growth will come from and they won't grasp the Kemper easily at first. Although Kemper has a really great series of help videos and a very large user base full of help and lots of free profiles.
That will help a great deal to get a novice who is used to 'plug and play' through the learning curve.

By comparison I think they will throw their hands up in surrender with Tonex and its environment!
that difference isn't something we 'experts' are used to thinking about. We just power through the crap but it is what any manufacturer/ designer has to overcome if they are going to grow the market. Otherwise it's just a closed gene pool of flippers coping with FOMO inspired purchases.

Kemper has been lucky that the competition has made a bunch of blunders but I feel like they are on borrowed time.

I see it as they invented this sport and have stood the test of time well and are better positioned than the rest.
They are starting the coming race from the poll position and have a full veteran racing support team with them.

 

[Antipodes]

Kemper only sounds good if you use a profile almost as is.

The word is that that is no longer the case with liquid profiles. Using the controls on an existing profile is no longer deleterious to the authenticity of the amp character.

 

[BenIfin]

Yes all of these are flawed products in various ways, but at the same time there's plenty of videos showing Tonex or QC beating Kemper at their own game. That has to count for something. The pricing of Tonex also makes it highly attractive to any newcomers to this stuff.

Kemper has been lucky that the competition has made a bunch of blunders but I feel like they are on borrowed time.

Hmmmmmm ....

12 Years and counting :)

^^^Listen to the 4 clips repeatedly *before* looking at the reveal in the comments .... without any spectral or any null analyses etc .... I would defy anyone to say which is the real Amp, Nam or Tonex or Kemper.

12+ years old and still cant tell the difference ... I suspect our German friends aren't going anywhere any time even remotely soon in the semi-pro / pro-market ... and like it or not .... and I don't .... the Kemper Player with its sh%t feature set and stupid high price ....... does sound exactly the same ..... the Kemper Player is only going to expand and fortify their position in the "lower" levels of the market with "pedal" users.

Ben :)

 

[Sascha Franck]

From the comfort of owning a Kemper Stage and knowing *nothing* of Kemper's Production, Wholesaling and Retail margins .... my take is perhaps a *better* Player would have been an actual Kemper Amp Player only ... ie:

=> a small Screen
=> Midi I/O PC and CC
=> no efx
=> full Kemper Amp Block Controls
=> full Kemper Cab / IR block Controls
=> full Kemper Input, Noise Gate, Clean Sense and Dist Sense controls
=> [maybe] a Global EQ ... but not necessary
=> No FSW's
=> ideally physically smaller

At a price point of something like $US450 <-> $US500.

To me and my logic ..... $US700 is crazy high for what you get .... and we all now know that additions / extras etc.... will be "paid-for" options.

Just my 2c

Ben

That's something I'd like to see.

 

[Sascha Franck]

the 'capture' approach is available in a $100 pedal.

Which one?