Question for bands using modeling

[makeitstop]

I played in a band for a while with a drummer who was big into e-kits. He had a couple of kits that looked like regular old drums and sounded pretty amazing.

But he'd bring them out and plug them into a pair of QSC powered cabs with 15s and horns. That SOB was louder than everybody.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I played in a band for a while with a drummer who was big into e-kits. He had a couple of kits that looked like regular old drums and sounded pretty amazing.

But he'd bring them out and plug them into a pair of QSC powered cabs with 15s and horns. That SOB was louder than everybody.

That’s pretty awesome. We’re using the CP12, and it’s cool.

 

[Stratzrus]

I played in a band for a while with a drummer who was big into e-kits...That SOB was louder than everybody.

The drummer in my last band played at one volume only...LOUD!

It drove me nuts but having a volume knob on the eDrums saved the day.

 

[unix-guy]

Yeah I was joking about the women But not about the drums if you listen you can hear ?
INXS were one of my favourite electronic drum bands

Too early... Not enough coffee! :)

Still, programmed electronic drums is different than live drums...

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Another question: in a highly digitalized live scenario, would the sound quality of an ekit even matter?

I see so many bands that are already running a DAW controlled show anyway, for tracks, automation, patch changes etc...so it wouldn't be hard to have the drum sounds in the box with superior drummer etc and the kit just as controller, with the module own sounds just as a failsafe. No?

 

[la szum]

Real hard hitting drummers can break e-drums quickly. Two drummer friends of mine could not hold back and play with lighter hits. It was built in to their muscle memory. Players that don't regularly break cymbals should do fine for F sake. I think the sound and feel is of good e-drums is awesome.

Yup. Good points. Not all drummers are created equal either on acoustic kits.

I think a basher who has no sense of dynamics is just as bad (if not worse!) than
a dynamic drummer on an E-Kit.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Yup. Good points. Not all drummers are created equal either on acoustic kits.

I think a basher who has no sense of dynamics is just as bad (if not worse!) than
a dynamic drummer on an E-Kit.

I think as far as being breakable, at the end of the day, it depends on the quality of the kit.I think a lot of people's idea of an "e-kit" is still a bit outdated. You can get some really sturdy stuff these days. ATV, Efnote etc make high quality stuff.
Something like:

ATV aDrums Basic Set - Standard Kit w/ No Module

ATV aDrums Basic Set with no drum module. ATV Adrums are electronic drums with great looks, great triggering, quiet mesh heads, and fantastic larger sized electronic cymbals. Free Shipping to the lower 48 USA. 2 Year US Warranty.

edrumcenter.com

https://edrumcenter.com/products/efnote-5-electronic-drum-kit?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=d98cbf0cd&pr_rec_pid=6403808788629&pr_ref_pid=6981923897493&pr_seq=uniform

My custom kit is as sturdy as a regular kit. The only really easily breakable thing are the mesh heads, but regular heads can break easily too.

 

[la szum]

I've played/own Acoustic Kits and E Kits and my experience is you need to have a different approach to them.

 

[pipelineaudio]

It sounds like what a $300 guitar into a $300 modeler would sound like vs my Marshalls (or a top shelf digital guitar rig - high quality guitar included of course) Again, different topic.

I don't know if you either didn't understand my original question, or you did and don't have a good answer for it and just try to derail instead. But either way...

No it wouldn't the Dean Vendatta XM was 100 bucks, sounds as good as any guitar at any budget. You could get "different" sounds, but not "better" and thru a decently tuned 300 dollar modeler I would be happy to bet you a very large sum that you couldn't ABX a difference in recordings of them

 

[Stratzrus]

I see so many bands that are already running a DAW controlled show anyway, for tracks, automation, patch changes etc...so it wouldn't be hard to have the drum sounds in the box with superior drummer etc and the kit just as controller, with the module own sounds just as a failsafe. No?

My band plays traditional Jazz (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, etc.) so nothing we do is automated.

I've played/own Acoustic Kits and E Kits and my experience is you need to have a different approach to them.

That would make sense. How would you describe the differences?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Another question: in a highly digitalized live scenario, would the sound quality of an ekit even matter?

I see so many bands that are already running a DAW controlled show anyway, for tracks, automation, patch changes etc...so it wouldn't be hard to have the drum sounds in the box with superior drummer etc and the kit just as controller, with the module own sounds just as a failsafe. No?

As long as they don't do the dead giveaways, like little subtle snare and hi hat stuff, and some fiddly little cymbal stuff...but even then, some people and styles of music LIKE what happens when you do that stuff on E-kits, so it can definitely work for a lot of situations

 

[GuitarBilly74]

My band plays traditional Jazz (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, etc.) so nothing we do is automated.

Same with my band. Well not jazz, but nothing we do is automated or digital. This question is not for us.

I'm curious about the ekit feasibility for bands that are already automated. That's why I posted this in the digital forum and not in the amps/cabs forum.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

No it wouldn't the Dean Vendatta XM was 100 bucks, sounds as good as any guitar at any budget. You could get "different" sounds, but not "better" and thru a decently tuned 300 dollar modeler I would be happy to bet you a very large sum that you couldn't ABX a difference in recordings of them

I disagree with this, sorry.

A lot of stuff is done with drum software these days and people don't notice/ don't care. When I'm hired my current drummer, she didn't notice our album was done with an ekit and superior drummer and she's a v very good drummer with decades of experience. Let alone the average listener.

Likewise, I saw Geoff Tate's band play the entire Operation Mindcrime album live recently (which is a rock drumming masterclass) with an ekit and it detracted nothing from the music.

 

[iaresee]

Likewise, I saw Geoff Tate's band play the entire Operation Mindcrime album live recently (which is a rock drumming masterclass) with an ekit and it detracted nothing from the music.

Every medium-to-large touring act is using triggers on acoustic kits anyways and reinforcing the drum sounds with BFD or something like that now.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Every medium-to-large touring act is using triggers on acoustic kits anyways and reinforcing the drum sounds with BFD or something like that now.

Yeah. I can see an e-kit not fitting into an old school type of production like a blues/jazz/rock band with amps etc.. but that's not the question anyway.

On a modern digital production with tracks, automation, sampling, modeling etc I don't see the e-kit even being noticed, especially if it doesn't look like one... like you said, many are already using triggers on their kits anyway.

If I'm not mistaken, on the current Pantera celebration show, Benante has samples of Vinnie Paul's drums triggered and blended in with his kit. I think Lars does the same with Metallica... Def Leppard is all e-kit...

 

[Stratzrus]

On a modern digital production with tracks, automation, sampling, modeling etc I don't see the e-kit even being noticed,,,

Once you're doing production it's a whole different ball game.

Very few bands are playing live all together at once when cutting records anymore.

Miles Davis used to call his band members, tell them they were recording the next day, show them the material when they arrived at the studio, and usually record it in one take.

Now you have teams of people working on the post production with multiple takes on individual parts.

One thing that really turns me off is when a record sounds, to my ear, over-produced. eDrums can contribute to that if not used judiciously.

 

[Space Pickle]

This is a bit outdated tbh. You'd be surprised how much all these things have improved even on mid priced kits over the last few years.

Watch J-Rod (Janet Jackson's drummer) play this Alesis Nitro Pro. Check out the playing bits and tell me which of his techniques were not correctly reproduced by this 799 kit.



Add a full size bass drum to this and it would look/ sound/ perform fine for 99% of gigs out there. If you go into the $1k+ range it's even better. And obviously you can also build your own like I did and mix and match the components you like better. That won't be anywhere near $11k. Mine was around $2.5k all in. Which is not "cheap". But neither were my Les Pauls/Marshall rig, for example.

This type of POV is a bit like those who tried modeling with the POD 2.0 and wrote if off based on that experience.

I gotta disagree. I would be very reluctant to gig a Nitro just on durability alone. I bought a Strike Pro SE a few years ago, and while it did have some positive points (it enabled me to practice at night) I wouldn't want to be taking it out on gigs. Basically everything is plastic.

Regarding technique, there's a bunch of stuff you can't do yet. You can't play brushes on the snare, you can't do cross-stick, and the hi-hats are absolute jank. My Strike hats have 3 sounds: closed, half-open, and open. It sounds really phoney. The hi-hat playability also sucks. I took a look at the newer Alesis Strata kit online but I wouldn't even consider shelling out 5K for it unless the hats are much improved.

E-kits definitely have their place, but they aren't a complete substitute for the real thing yet.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

E-kits definitely have their place, but they aren't a complete substitute for the real thing yet.

True, but I think that can be said about any digital version of any instrument/gear, depending on who you ask.
I can think of a bunch that says the same thing about modeling. Are they wrong? Depends on who you ask.
My cousin is a classically trained pianist and cringes every time I have him play my Roland FA synth. Is he wrong? Depends on who you ask.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I think I did get my answer here, and pretty early on the thread:

If I could convince my drummers to do it I’d be stoked. The order of willingness to try new stuff goes Vocalist -> Bassist -> Guitarist ————-> drummers.

I think that's pretty accurate now that this thread had other 6 pages kind of just proving this point lol

This was interesting, especially since usually I'm the one going "No!! I want amps!!!

 

[pipelineaudio]

I disagree with this, sorry.

A lot of stuff is done with drum software these days and people don't notice/ don't care. When I'm hired my current drummer, she didn't notice our album was done with an ekit and superior drummer and she's a v very good drummer with decades of experience. Let alone the average listener.

This doesn’t actually adress my claim. My claim is that if you have a drummer doing some certain subtle things, the things drummers always test on e kits to see how real they are, I can ABX them 100% of the time. I want to be wrong about this. E drums make nearly every aspect of my life much much much better and result in many more opportunities for myself and all
Of our schools students.