Question for bands using modeling

[OneEng]

we all make choices. i cant even imagine a sub, nevermind monitors- nevermind a choice of mixes most times. if you have those things and get them, those are your non negotiables! i quitw literally wouldnt know what to do with them if i had em.

LOL. And I can no longer imagine playing without wireless IEM's :). Shoot, these day's I am so spoiled I even feel slighted if I can't get a stereo IEM mix!

or just do no mics on drums. in a small venue with a vocal pa and a band that gets dynamics, theres precisely zero issue with balancing drums and band. its how its always been. the issue isnt drums or drummers most times, its trying to sound like a recording at zero volume. its an expectation problem much more than an actual physical issue.

A natural kick sounds like crap without reinforcement. Wouldn't dream of playing without micing the kick.

I'm still waiting to see if people are claiming that every hi hat and snare nuance can be created from an E-Kit...that's the why answer to the OP question.

Because they can't. Every sound the e-kit CAN produce is more than acceptable, its the sounds created by the techniques they can't (yet) produce that are the answer to why

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

I went to this show last year. It sounded amazing. This concert experience is actually what got me thinking about this subject and prompted me to ask this question.

Honestly a much better experience than the usual modeling + loud kit on stage that you get on smaller venues or even mid size venues when you're close to the stage.


Oh hell no

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

 

[pipelineaudio]

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

A common example would be fast rolls. This is where I see drummers who refuse e-kits really draw the line...so far

 

[pipelineaudio]

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

One TRILLION percent! The limiting factor of sounding good in a club so often comes down to a race between deaf guitar players pointing their amps at their knees then turning up enough to hear it *while simultaneously rejecting any offer of guitars in the monitors* and drummers who can't read a room and hit their way too loud snare way too hard, while also not being able to hear above 6khz and insisting on buying cymbals that peak at 8k and thus needing to hit the cymbals super hard in order to hear them

 

[burningyen]

At my last gig, I discovered that my bridge pickup was microphonic because the snare drum was coming through my Helix. So there are benefits to having a loud drummer onstage.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

A common example would be fast rolls. This is where I see drummers who refuse e-kits really draw the line...so far

that's no longer a problem, at least not to a degree that would cause an issue live. My drummer plays fast rolls on my e-kit all the time.

from yt (not my drummer lol):

 

[newholland]

LOL. And I can no longer imagine playing without wireless IEM's :). Shoot, these day's I am so spoiled I even feel slighted if I can't get a stereo IEM mix!


A natural kick sounds like crap without reinforcement. Wouldn't dream of playing without micing the kick.

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

its not so much that id disagree with anything you said if the economics of independent music weren't such that folks doing those shows seldom have these things in basements and coop spaces. its definitely a different skillset to cultivate existing in that universe

makes you thankful for shitty monitors when you DO get them, even though all i ever ask for is vocals and kick drum

in all honesty though, most of my banding experiences have been drilled through constant practice and reinforced via visual signals despite REALLY loud stage volume because of a super loud drummer. not always optimal, but totally negotiable. great for two guitar players working off each other? no. wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

 

[pipelineaudio]

that's no longer a problem, at least not to a degree that would cause an issue live. My drummer plays fast rolls on my e-kit all the time.

from yt (not my drummer lol):

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it. Like I said, if they are playing the same sort of part that was programmed (generally) for a recording, or even tracked using an E-Kit, it should be 100% ok, but if you put many a drummer in front of that set they aren't going to like it, also, in this case, because there isn't any sort of anti machinegun being used on this video, you would probably want to use trigger software that has at least round robin support, and then that likely means at least 6msec of latency.

These are all things I do for years, if the drummer can tolerate it. But many can't and even the ones who generally like e kits do not like the typewriter/machinegun effect. The problem drummer can hear it easily a mile away and will reject it. Dismiss the ABX test all you want but this is one of the reason many drummers will reject it and you hear it in that video

 

[pipelineaudio]

wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

 

[GuitarBilly74]

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it. Like I said, if they are playing the same sort of part that was programmed (generally) for a recording, or even tracked using an E-Kit, it should be 100% ok, but if you put many a drummer in front of that set they aren't going to like it, also, in this case, because there isn't any sort of anti machinegun being used on this video, you would probably want to use trigger software that has at least round robin support, and then that likely means at least 6msec of latency.

These are all things I do for years, if the drummer can tolerate it. But many can't and even the ones who generally like e kits do not like the typewriter/machinegun effect. The problem drummer can hear it easily a mile away and will reject it. Dismiss the ABX test all you want but this is one of the reason many drummers will reject it and you hear it in that video

 

[GuitarBilly74]

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it.

yah "I don't want to use it" is an issue for any instrument ever made.

 

[newholland]

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

seems like if yer gonna have two guitarists, its kinda pointless to play the same thing. at some point its gonna happen- eventually you trust your other guitarists taste, even if you cant always hear perfectly. i wonder how differently itdve worked if we COULD'VE heard each other better over drums.

 

[pipelineaudio]

yah "I don't want to use it" is an issue for any instrument ever made.

Question for bands using modeling​

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too?

That's why (partially)

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Question for bands using modeling​

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too?

That's why (partially)

Seriously?? It took you 9 pages and about 5000 words to say " it's cuz they don't want to"?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Seriously?? It took you 9 pages and about 5000 words to say " it's cuz they don't want to"?

No, YOU summarized it as "they don't want to". I gave you the reasons why they don't want to

Your question could easily be phrased as "why don't they want to"

 

[GuitarBilly74]

No, YOU summarized it as "they don't want to". I gave you the reasons why they don't want to

Your question could easily be phrased as "why don't they want to"

yeah yeah the ABX results etc... I don't buy it, sorry.

 

[pipelineaudio]

You don't buy that the reason that some drummers don't want to play e-kits is because they don't like the sound coming out the other end?

 

[ucnick]

I'm in 2 bands, both with the same drummer, he is a kick ass drummers and we are longtime bandmates from a previous band. He uses an upper tier Roland e-drums kit and is very happy with it, as are the bands and the audiences. He said it took months cof tweaking to get it to where it is now but well worth it.

 

[OneEng]

its not so much that id disagree with anything you said if the economics of independent music weren't such that folks doing those shows seldom have these things in basements and coop spaces. its definitely a different skillset to cultivate existing in that universe

makes you thankful for shitty monitors when you DO get them, even though all i ever ask for is vocals and kick drum

in all honesty though, most of my banding experiences have been drilled through constant practice and reinforced via visual signals despite REALLY loud stage volume because of a super loud drummer. not always optimal, but totally negotiable. great for two guitar players working off each other? no. wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

Yea, I can remember having this exact conversation with the other guitar player in a band I was in before we went with a silent stage! I also remember said other guitar player running off on a different part of the song when the lead singer accidentally missed the bridge. He couldn't hear what was going on and JUST KEPT PLAYING something different than the rest of the band!

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

Yea, nothing like a recording to make you feel like crap about how you play and/or sing :). Man, those raw tracks are brutal!

I'm in 2 bands, both with the same drummer, he is a kick ass drummers and we are longtime bandmates from a previous band. He uses an upper tier Roland e-drums kit and is very happy with it, as are the bands and the audiences. He said it took months cof tweaking to get it to where it is now but well worth it.

The sound out front with an eDrum band is always tighter IME. Yes, I agree that it takes some tweaking to get it there, but once there, it is reproducible in every venue.

 

[OneEng]

One TRILLION percent! The limiting factor of sounding good in a club so often comes down to a race between deaf guitar players pointing their amps at their knees then turning up enough to hear it *while simultaneously rejecting any offer of guitars in the monitors* and drummers who can't read a room and hit their way too loud snare way too hard, while also not being able to hear above 6khz and insisting on buying cymbals that peak at 8k and thus needing to hit the cymbals super hard in order to hear them

Ironically, Singers and bass players appear to be the most open to a silent stage and IEM's (ie, the 2 least offensive sources of high stage volume in the first place) ..... while lead guitar players most frequently refuse because they can't hear "their sound". I have had pretty good luck with drummers and IEM's (or headphones) vs wedges simply because drummers are basically used to not being able to hear ANYTHING .... so when they get an IEM mix where they can FINALLY hear the rest of the band, they frequently like it.

 

[Stratzrus]

The sound out front with an eDrum band is always tighter IME. Yes, I agree that it takes some tweaking to get it there, but once there, it is reproducible in every venue.

What kind of tweaking do you do?