Running modelers through backline amps

[spawnofthesith]

RE deluxe reverbs and an HX: I did a one off gig a couple months ago where I was fairly determined to run some amp or preamp models into the front of my DR for crunch and lead tones, I ended up bailing on that idea as I just wasn't getting great sounds especially up to volume. Ended up just using 3 different HX dirt pedals for varying levels of gain and it sounded great



I think my favorite poweramp for an HX is a 5153

 

[Sascha Franck]

You need to insist.

Give it a try for your next gig in a rather weird venue in Marrakesh. And yes, I tried (I'll leave it to your imagination how successful that turned out).

 

[Orvillain]

Give it a try for your next gig in a rather weird venue in Marrakesh. And yes, I tried (I'll leave it to your imagination how successful that turned out).

Can't I play a good place instead?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Can't I play a good place instead?

Well, it was a "good" place. In a way.

 

[EOengineer]

I’d snag a TC Electronics BAM200 and carry your own poweramp around, it’s small enough to fit in a gig bag or on a pedalboard.

I think I’d go direct and know my tones are going to come across how I want them, rather than risking the amount of coloring running into the front of an amp or even into the return of some of them. I’ve gotten some pretty varied results using the Return of heads, they have to be really clean with a good amount of headroom to ‘do it’ right. Without getting to crank it up and having a few minutes to tweak, it’d be risky, unless you knew which amps you were going to plug into ahead of time.

For less than $200 that TC could resolve some of that, unless you showed up and there’s only combo amps you can’t disconnect the speaker from!

I agree with the sentiment here - bringing a small portable power amp opens a lot of options. I literally have a BAM200 in my Helix backpack for this reason - I just worry about TC’s reliability. My perception is that their quality has slid in recent years.

RE deluxe reverbs and an HX: I did a one off gig a couple months ago where I was fairly determined to run some amp or preamp models into the front of my DR for crunch and lead tones, I ended up bailing on that idea as I just wasn't getting great sounds especially up to volume. Ended up just using 3 different HX dirt pedals for varying levels of gain and it sounded great



I think my favorite poweramp for an HX is a 5153

I’ve had similar experiences with Helix and my Deluxe Reverb. You’d sort of expect the preamp or even full amp models to work as a pedal but man…total disaster.

I’ve had ok-ish results with HX drives stacked in a pinch, but that’s not usually my cup of tea.

 

[Baba]

My god OP, you described my previous experience with IEMs and my last band, to a very large effing T.

We ran our own sound, and every one had control of their IEM mix via the iphone app, and my one singer would STILL look over at me and say, "I can't hear you" sometimes. NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I TOLD HER THAT SHE HAS CONTROL OF THAT, AND I DO NOT.

I cannot overstate how frustrating that was.

Anyway, a couple of thoughts, some have been mentioned:

1. There are some places or soundmen we use where, I'll plug directly into their powered wedge, BEFORE they even notice or before we even talk about it, and when I tell them what I'm doing, after the fact, they pause, but let it go. In fact, I usually tell them that nothing is changed, they can just take that same monitor line, and run it to the IEM instead of the wedge, and that is the ONLY difference. That can be done at the monitor send area, or at the wedge area, their choice. I even had a 30' XLR cable of my own, that I used to bring, for such instances.

That may not be 100% for you, but maybe that could be plan A.

2. It depends on what kind of sound you're going for, but I have what I call my "casino" preset, which is the OCD and EP booster as the main dirt tones, with a couple of effects, to run into the front of a combo/clean amps, and that works EXTREMELY well for me.

3. The small power amp idea would work too, you would just have to make sure you can get to the 1/4" cable that goes to the speaker, those are usually wired in pretty tight with combos, and it's almost impossible to just put a power amp on top of a combo, there's usually not enough slack.

4. You could just set a preset for use into the effects return of backline amps, but there is one casino I play that uses Roland Blues cubes, that DON'T have effects loops, so, see #2.

 

[nightlight]

These are very difficult situations, and soundmen in general are very difficult unless you are a major band, as it is probably their equipment. Most soundmen are basically expensive PA owners, who come to the gig to make sure that their equipment is used properly.

While not all of the amps you get as backline will have FX loops, a lot of them will. And if you have the option to specify a requirement and they insist that you use "a real amp", just make sure you ask for one with an FX loop.

When you don't have an FX loop capable amp, the global EQ on your modeller is your friend. Plugin into the front of the amp and then run through each of your main presets while tweaking the global EQ on the modeller.

It will be impossible to get everything to sound like it does through "FRFR", but at least you should be able to get a good sound on stage.

 

[dk_ace]

My approach has always been this: if the gig is meant to work off of backline amps, I’m using the amp as the amp and set up a patch/patches meant to work in front of the amp. I think it’s way too dodgy to try to split the signal off early and feed two sources or to try to run amp modeled sounds into an amp.

When I’ve got to do this I either use things that work in front of virtually any amp, or I build a patch for the specific amp if I know what it will be. For me, I’ve found I can cover a ton of ground with a nobels and a rat model for dirt and those tend to work in front of most any amp design. If I need modern high gain stuff, I’m probably screwed no matter what but I’d probably try a precision drive model in front of some other high gain pedal model.

Dirt, comp, and eq are where I focus my efforts as the time based stuff seems to just be the same stuff I would have used anyway.

D

 

[Sascha Franck]

My approach has always been this: if the gig is meant to work off of backline amps, I’m using the amp as the amp and set up a patch/patches meant to work in front of the amp. I think it’s way too dodgy to try to split the signal off early and feed two sources or to try to run amp modeled sounds into an amp.

Yeah, basically this. And I would've done so myself when it happened - in case the FOH hadn't been just happy with my signal

 

[aflynt]

I didn't realize that the TC BAM 200 was only $179. I had a SD Powerstage 200 at one point that was ok, but it was nearly 3x the price. Is the BAM actually decent and comparable to the Powerstage?

-Aaron

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Well, with a backline amp you don't need the amp modeling. Turn the amp modeling off and run your effects into the backline amp as you would with a regular pedalboard.

Maybe create copies of your presets with and without the modeling for different scenarios. That's what all those preset slots are for.

 

[aflynt]

Well, with a backline amp you don't need the amp modeling. Turn the amp modeling off and run your effects into the backline amp as you would with a regular pedalboard.

Maybe create copies of your presets with and without the modeling for different scenarios. That's what all those preset slots are for.

I've touched a bit on this previously and why I'd rather not go that route. I've explored this option and was even considering it for a bit having created separate patches with clean amp models and dirt pedals and effects in front with a split before the amp block to hit the backline amp.

Let me expound on some of the reasons why I'd rather not do that..

1. This is the main reason. Tonal consistency from show to show in FOH. I have my presets dialed in to sound amazing through any decently tuned FOH system with minimal effort on the part of the sound engineer. They can literally just get a level and turn up the fader. I do all my solo boosts myself so their job is super easy. Even if FOH took the feed off my modeler directly I'd still need to refine all these new backline-specific presets over a series of shows to get them as dialed in my main ones. Then I'd still have the issue of the different backline amps not responding the same way as the modeled amp from show to show. I'd wind up with some shows where the backline amp would be louder or quieter from patch to patch than the modeled clean amp due to differences in gain structure and how compressed the given amp is that night.

2. I get my gain from the modeled amps themselves. A lot of what I do playing-wise is a direct reaction to how those modeled amps respond in my Fractal. I'd need to move to a pedal-for-gain kind of setup which I honestly find kind of flat and one dimensional, especially when the pedals are going into a clean amp. I can suck it up and get through a gig this way no problem, but I rather not have to. If I optimize my backline-amp presets for non-clean amps I'm going to have to adjust things a lot from show to show on the unit given there could be any range of amps that I'm provided.

3. I guess there's no 3. Those two reasons are enough for me.

-Aaron