Running modelers through backline amps

[aflynt]

I'd like to get people's experiences running their modelers through backline amps provided by a venue when an FRFR isn't available. This would just be for some stage volume for other band members and to wake my guitar up a bit. My feed to FOH would come directly from my FM3 with the backline amp fed from Output 2 split off before the cab block. I use IEMs as well.

Normally I bring my own FRFR (EV PXM12-MP) with me to all shows and run that in front of me and this works well. Lately we've been doing some fly dates that make it impractical for me to bring anything more than my guitar, modeler and personal IEM rig with me to shows. Having an FRFR to run through at the venues is hit or miss. Sometimes there'll be one, but usually it's just another monitor feed from FOH and then they need to burn an aux bus for just that along with the feed for me IEMs... which is a bit of a hassle for the sound person and sometimes not possible given we're a 7 piece band. They usually don't want me to plug directly into their monitors either... even if they are powered :). There's almost always a backline amp, though.

My initial thought was to just use IEMs without any other stage monitoring for myself, but in practice this has two drawbacks. First, the guitar tends to feel more dead and less enjoyable to play without some air moving on stage. I can suck it up and deal with that for these dates, but the other issue is that other band members don't think about this until we start playing and then start asking me to turn up instead of having the sound person just turn me up in their monitor. This should be their problem of course, but practically it's mine. They won't think about this until they can't hear me even if I try to explain it in advance. :)

Anyway, my idea is to just monitor off backline amps for this, but I'm not sure how well this will go. I'd probably just plug into the front end of the amp and dial it as flat as possible with a pre-cab-block feed. I've tried it out at home and I guess it's not too horrible. Slightly weird having the sound of the guitar cab itself coloring things in a different way, but it SEEMS like it'd be good enough. Just wondering if anyone else does something similar and how it worked out.

-Aaron

 

[paisleywookiee]

Backline amps, or backline cabs? I know plenty who do the latter, and just use a Powerstage or Quilter. The former is a bit more of a mixed bag. Often a mixed back of poop.

 

[aflynt]

Backline amps, or backline cabs? I know plenty who do the latter, and just use a Powerstage or Quilter. The former is a bit more of a mixed bag. Often a mixed back of poop.

Amps.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Amps.

It can be done. It's just not going to sound optimal, depending on the amp. I'd really recommend a small power amp to use with the cabs.

 

[aflynt]

It can be done. It's just not going to sound optimal, depending on the amp. I'd really recommend a small power amp to use with the cabs.

That's a thought. I could probably sneak a small power amp in my luggage with a speaker cord and coupler. Realistically, I'd need to do this with backline combo amps though as 99% if the time that's what's there.

-Aaron

 

[Frodebro]

That's a thought. I could probably sneak a small power amp in my luggage with a speaker cord and coupler. Realistically, I'd need to do this with backline combo amps though as 99% if the time that's what's there.

-Aaron

If they have loops you have a fighting chance.

 

[aflynt]

If they have loops you have a fighting chance.

Definitely not a guarantee of that.

-Aaron

 

[ian_dissonance]

I don’t even bother splitting the feed for the backline before the cab modeling with the Helix. I just set the global EQ to only process the 1/4” out and adjust it to good enough. In my case we’re on stage for 30-40 minutes so getting to awesome isn’t a concern. Usually just have to pull some low mids and maybe a high shelf boost.

 

[jay mitchell]

You gotta do what you gotta do. If you have any influence over what backline amp you get, I suggest you request a Twin Reverb, as it can be both loud and clean. If you're forced to use a smaller amp - say, a Deluxe Reverb - you're gonna be stuck with some amount of dirt from the amp itself, which isn't ideal. In any case, you'll need to build presets specifically for the purpose.

 

[aflynt]

I don’t even bother splitting the feed for the backline before the cab modeling with the Helix. I just set the global EQ to only process the 1/4” out and adjust it to good enough. In my case we’re on stage for 30-40 minutes so getting to awesome isn’t a concern. Usually just have to pull some low mids and maybe a high shelf boost.

I tried without the split. Basically set up two patches that allowed me to a/b with and w/o the split one after the other. It's definitely closer to what I want, at least through my amp, with the split before the cab. With the cab it's incredibly muffled. Without the cab it's closer, but there's just some weird stuff in the low end. I'm hoping the amp eq will help. I use Out 2 for my IEM feed as well, so I can't really EQ it on the fly without messing that up too.

You gotta do what you gotta do. If you have any influence over what backline amp you get, I suggest you request a Twin Reverb, as it can be both loud and clean. If you're forced to use a smaller amp - say, a Deluxe Reverb - you're gonna be stuck with some amount of dirt from the amp itself, which isn't ideal. In any case, you'll need to build presets specifically for the purpose.

True. I'm sure that I'll be stuck with a Deluxe Reverb or Hot Rod Deluxe most of the time, unfortunately. I'm hoping that if I already know how to dial those in close to flat I'll be able to get something reasonable going from there.

I was actually contemplating just running the FM3 like a pedalboard for a bit and setting up patches with drive blocks instead of amp gain and all the effects pre-amp block. I realized pretty quickly that this won't work well practically since I'd need to be able to quickly adjust gain and levels on all the drives on the fly and then replicate that change across all my patches to handle differences in gain between different amps at different volume levels. All the stuff I used to have to do way back when I ran a conventional pedal board.

-Aaron

 

[Sascha Franck]

A question: When doing these fly gigs, is there any chance you could use a clean amp in the FM3 all throughout and do all the tone shaping with dirt pedals, also running FX in front of that clean amp?

I'm asking because for a smaller run of shows I was faced with pretty much the same situation (just that I wasn't using IEMs but had to actually monitor through the amp), the amp provided was a HRD. Which does have a loop, but apparenty it didn't work all that well for whatever reasons (I actually expected it to work better as the HRD isn't exactly known for it's power amp coloration). Even tried to just use the preamps of the amp models I had running (in the Helix Floor), still didn't sound too well.
So I took the plunge and sat down before the next day's gig and reprogrammed my kitchen sink patch so all dirt would come from pedals and had the (then completely clean) amp as the last thing in the signal chain (from what I remember, I used the MkIV clean channel model).
Note: I could've just set up a pedalboard thing with no amp at all, so the sound guys would have to mic the HRD up, but the FOH guy was pretty happy to have a constant level coming in, with me being able to adjust my monitor/amp level independently.
This worked very, very well, even if I was missing a detail in this or the other dirt patch, pretty much because there's no decent amp-in-a-box pedals in the HX ecosystem. Still was a great sound, even if a bit different. The good thing being (and that's why I'm posting here) that it'd work with pretty much any backline amp that goes more or less well with pedals into the front end.
Would do it exactly the same in case I was in such a situation again. Also a neat thing for sessions, where provided backline amps are pretty much the normal thing.

 

[EOengineer]

A question: When doing these fly gigs, is there any chance you could use a clean amp in the FM3 all throughout and do all the tone shaping with dirt pedals, also running FX in front of that clean amp?

I'm asking because for a smaller run of shows I was faced with pretty much the same situation (just that I wasn't using IEMs but had to actually monitor through the amp), the amp provided was a HRD. Which does have a loop, but apparenty it didn't work all that well for whatever reasons (I actually expected it to work better as the HRD isn't exactly known for it's power amp coloration). Even tried to just use the preamps of the amp models I had running (in the Helix Floor), still didn't sound too well.
So I took the plunge and sat down before the next day's gig and reprogrammed my kitchen sink patch so all dirt would come from pedals and had the (then completely clean) amp as the last thing in the signal chain (from what I remember, I used the MkIV clean channel model).
Note: I could've just set up a pedalboard thing with no amp at all, so the sound guys would have to mic the HRD up, but the FOH guy was pretty happy to have a constant level coming in, with me being able to adjust my monitor/amp level independently.
This worked very, very well, even if I was missing a detail in this or the other dirt patch, pretty much because there's no decent amp-in-a-box pedals in the HX ecosystem. Still was a great sound, even if a bit different. The good thing being (and that's why I'm posting here) that it'd work with pretty much any backline amp that goes more or less well with pedals into the front end.
Would do it exactly the same in case I was in such a situation again. Also a neat thing for sessions, where provided backline amps are pretty much the normal thing.

I gig with Helix and a 2204 using a similar approach. I have the 2204 physical amp and sim dialed in to match on an edge of breakup tone that can clean up from my volume knob. Boosts and fx are run into the front of the amps, splitting before the amp sim in the Helix and routing out send 1 to my physical 2204.

This has worked very well so far though falls apart if you need clean delays and verbs.

 

[Sascha Franck]

though falls apart if you need clean delays and verbs.

Defenitely.
That's why a) I was using a clean amp and b) why I'm wishing for some AITB dirt pedal models in the HX world (the current ones are ok-ish at best but don't provide solid rock riff sounds on their own when running into a totally clean amp).

 

[Orvillain]

They usually don't want me to plug directly into their monitors either... even if they are powered :).

You need to insist. Make it an explicit part of your tech specs that you send to the organiser/promoter/engineer weeks to months beforehand.

They are technical staff who are there and are being paid to deliver an experience in accordance with the creative vision of the artists being staged. They are not there to get precious about equipment, or to moan when they have to actually do some work.

Any decent venue should be able to take a feed via the stagebox and route it directly to a monitor wedge on the stage, without disrupting any of the other requiring monitoring.

Failing all of that, if they're providing a backline amp, then find out what it is, and plan accordingly. If it is a nice clean pedal platform amp, then don't take a modeller. Take a few small single boxes. You can get very far with a boost or OD, a delay, and a tuner.

 

[EOengineer]

Defenitely.
That's why a) I was using a clean amp and b) why I'm wishing for some AITB dirt pedal models in the HX world (the current ones are ok-ish at best but don't provide solid rock riff sounds on their own when running into a totally clean amp).

Yeah I might be tempted to switch to something cleaner like my Deluxe Reverb if there was a reasonable amp in a box pedal in the HX world. I was semi hoping we might see the Bogner Blue pedal added along with the new Bogner amp but that was a long shot. I own the pedal and could maybe incorporate it but honestly don’t want to deal with the loop and extra hardware if it can be avoided.

An update with a round of amp in a box pedals would be a nice addition to HX.

 

[DrewJD82]

I’d snag a TC Electronics BAM200 and carry your own poweramp around, it’s small enough to fit in a gig bag or on a pedalboard.

I think I’d go direct and know my tones are going to come across how I want them, rather than risking the amount of coloring running into the front of an amp or even into the return of some of them. I’ve gotten some pretty varied results using the Return of heads, they have to be really clean with a good amount of headroom to ‘do it’ right. Without getting to crank it up and having a few minutes to tweak, it’d be risky, unless you knew which amps you were going to plug into ahead of time.

For less than $200 that TC could resolve some of that, unless you showed up and there’s only combo amps you can’t disconnect the speaker from!

 

[aflynt]

A question: When doing these fly gigs, is there any chance you could use a clean amp in the FM3 all throughout and do all the tone shaping with dirt pedals, also running FX in front of that clean amp?

I'm asking because for a smaller run of shows I was faced with pretty much the same situation (just that I wasn't using IEMs but had to actually monitor through the amp), the amp provided was a HRD. Which does have a loop, but apparenty it didn't work all that well for whatever reasons (I actually expected it to work better as the HRD isn't exactly known for it's power amp coloration). Even tried to just use the preamps of the amp models I had running (in the Helix Floor), still didn't sound too well.
So I took the plunge and sat down before the next day's gig and reprogrammed my kitchen sink patch so all dirt would come from pedals and had the (then completely clean) amp as the last thing in the signal chain (from what I remember, I used the MkIV clean channel model).
Note: I could've just set up a pedalboard thing with no amp at all, so the sound guys would have to mic the HRD up, but the FOH guy was pretty happy to have a constant level coming in, with me being able to adjust my monitor/amp level independently.
This worked very, very well, even if I was missing a detail in this or the other dirt patch, pretty much because there's no decent amp-in-a-box pedals in the HX ecosystem. Still was a great sound, even if a bit different. The good thing being (and that's why I'm posting here) that it'd work with pretty much any backline amp that goes more or less well with pedals into the front end.
Would do it exactly the same in case I was in such a situation again. Also a neat thing for sessions, where provided backline amps are pretty much the normal thing.

This was actually one of my first plans. I have a string of patches all ready for this with a Deluxe model and some drive blocks. This just brings back all kinds of memories of what a pain in the ass it is to use regular amps with pedals when you have volume constraints and can't guarantee a consistent level of breakup and tone from show to show. I'd rather just use the modeler without any onstage monitoring to be honest than do that (I use IEMS as well). The band would have to deal with getting my level right in their wedges, but at least I'd know I'd have something consistent going to FOH.

-Aaron

 

[aflynt]

I’d snag a TC Electronics BAM200 and carry your own poweramp around, it’s small enough to fit in a gig bag or on a pedalboard.

I think I’d go direct and know my tones are going to come across how I want them, rather than risking the amount of coloring running into the front of an amp or even into the return of some of them. I’ve gotten some pretty varied results using the Return of heads, they have to be really clean with a good amount of headroom to ‘do it’ right. Without getting to crank it up and having a few minutes to tweak, it’d be risky, unless you knew which amps you were going to plug into ahead of time.

For less than $200 that TC could resolve some of that, unless you showed up and there’s only combo amps you can’t disconnect the speaker from!

Yeah. I'm leaning towards this right now.

-Aaron

 

[aflynt]

You need to insist. Make it an explicit part of your tech specs that you send to the organiser/promoter/engineer weeks to months beforehand.

They are technical staff who are there and are being paid to deliver an experience in accordance with the creative vision of the artists being staged. They are not there to get precious about equipment, or to moan when they have to actually do some work.

Any decent venue should be able to take a feed via the stagebox and route it directly to a monitor wedge on the stage, without disrupting any of the other requiring monitoring.

Failing all of that, if they're providing a backline amp, then find out what it is, and plan accordingly. If it is a nice clean pedal platform amp, then don't take a modeller. Take a few small single boxes. You can get very far with a boost or OD, a delay, and a tuner.

OMG. Now you've hit my rant button. I wish it was as easy as a tech rider, and there very well may be tech riders for some of these places. I will never see one though. This is a Soul Band run by boomers playing at small to medium Jazz and Blues clubs also run by boomers. I've got nothing against these people personally (they're great people), but they ALL have this fixed image of what a guitarist is in their head and that image always involves amps and pedals. I've told them what I need a million times, but they don't have a clue what any of this is and I'm never directly in contact with the tech people on the club side of things despite asking to be.

Just a small example: For one club we played in Wisconsin, the band leader messaged me a few days before the show asking what kind of amp I wanted. I then explained (for the millionth time) that I don't use an amp and that I go direct into the board, and just need a stage monitor for my guitar signal and an IEM feed, etc... I showed up at the club and the sound guy was like... 'so what amp do you want? I don't remember exactly which one you decided on in the email thread with [the band leader] so I just put a bunch of amps in my car for you to choose from.'

-Aaron

 

[Orvillain]

OMG. Now you've hit my rant button. I wish it was as easy as a tech rider, and there very well may be tech riders for some of these places. I will never see one though. This is a Soul Band run by boomers playing at small to medium Jazz and Blues clubs also run by boomers. I've got nothing against these people personally (they're great people), but they ALL have this fixed image of what a guitarist is in their head and that image always involves amps and pedals. I've told them what I need a million times, but they don't have a clue what any of this is and I'm never directly in contact with the tech people on the club side of things despite asking to be.

Just a small example: For one club we played in Wisconsin, the band leader messaged me a few days before the show asking what kind of amp I wanted. I then explained (for the millionth time) that I don't use an amp and that I go direct into the board, and just need a stage monitor for my guitar signal and an IEM feed, etc... I showed up at the club and the sound guy was like... 'so what amp do you want? I don't remember exactly which one you decided on in the email thread with [the band leader] so I just put a bunch of amps in my car for you to choose from.'

-Aaron

Kill them.