Question for bands using modeling

[GuitarBilly74]

This doesn’t actually adress my claim. My claim is that if you have a drummer doing some certain subtle things, the things drummers always test on e kits to see how real they are, I can ABX them 100% of the time. I want to be wrong about this. E drums make nearly every aspect of my life much much much better and result in many more opportunities for myself and all
Of our schools students.

I did address your claim, just in a polite and succinct way. Since it didn't work, I'll be slightly more blunt.
Your ABX test results mean absolutely nothing in terms of how the drums would perform in a modern, dense live mix, which btw was the original question.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I did address your claim, just in a polite and succinct way. Since it didn't work, I'll be slightly more blunt.
Your ABX test results mean absolutely nothing in terms of how the drums would perform in a modern, dense live mix, which btw was the original question.

That's true, and again, addresses nothing about my claim.

 

[JiveTurkey]

 

[maguchi]

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too? Seems like that would be the biggest rig and loudest source of stage volume. And e-drums sound pretty good these days, I think.

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

A drummer I play with a lot uses mostly a E-kit (Roland). His kick and all his toms are all electronic. However he uses a acoustic snare and traditional metal cymbals with a E-kit. He says he likes the sound and feel of the traditional snare and cymbals better than the electronic one.

I kind of like and can appreciate that method, and try to do the same with guitar. Meaning a hybrid approach, sometimes going all modeling straight to PA and other times mixing modeling with traditional amps. I don't want to rule anything out. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[maguchi]

View attachment 39021

Isn't a ABX test for syphilis? Oh wait, that's ABS test. Carry on.

 

[pipelineaudio]

. However he uses a acoustic snare and traditional metal cymbals with a E-kit. He says he likes the sound and feel of the traditional snare and cymbals better than the electronic one.

Bingo, this is where they are still struggling when dealing with traditional drummers.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Bingo, this is where they are still struggling when dealing with traditional drummers.

Yeah I'm sure they all got a copy of your ABX white paper and ruled out e-kits based on your findings.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Are you claiming that all the little nuances of snare and hi hat can be (at least to a human degree) indistinguishably created by an E-Kit from an acoustic kit?

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Are you claiming that all the little nuances of snare and hi hat can be (at least to a human degree) indistinguishably created by an E-Kit from an acoustic kit?

Never for a moment. You're the only one taking about that.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Never for a moment. You're the only one taking about that.

whooooosh

 

[OneEng]

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too? Seems like that would be the biggest rig and loudest source of stage volume. And e-drums sound pretty good these days, I think.

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

I have played in 3 bands over the last 20 or so years. All of them were vDrums. Prior to that I had acoustic drums. It was a NIGHTMARE in comparison.

Have had in-ear monitors for about that long as well .... so a completely silent stage.

We can play ANY venue with this setup and we sound equally good at every venue. I really like the tight sound you can get with vDrums vs acoustic drums.

Seriously, I have struggled with loud drummers for years before running across a band that had vDrums. I was amazed at how clean they sounded.

Acoustic drums are so loud that frequently you have no possible way to get the vocals above the mix ..... because at the vocal mic, the stage volume of the cymbals and snare are SOOOO loud that no singer could ever get over them. You turn the vocal mic up, the stage blead from the drums just goes up too. MUSH with no vocal clarity possible.

Of course, you can have great sound from acoustic drums if you are on a large stage and outside .... but you still need a metric crap ton of microphones and processing to get it to the same place vDrums start at!

 

[OneEng]

First of all, a barely decent electronic drum kit is extremely more expensive than an acoustic drum kit. And I think this is a major point for any band and drummer. Not to mention the additional cost of a control unit with the faders and the separate outputs for each element (in my opinion it'd be essential for mixing and playing live). Then you need also a good powered monitor for it.
So you would end up with a cost that is 5 to 10 times higher than a acoustic drums...
Then we could discuss about ghost notes, drum technique, and feeling. But these problems come second.

Yea, lots of my old drummers used to tell me that as well. It isn't true.

I had 2K of microphones, clips and cords needed to mic up those "inexpensive" acoustic drums. Not sure what is "inexpensive" about it when you add in 2K of PA gear.

Have always used IEM's, even when my drummers were using an acoustic kit. For drummers, all you need is a rack mount head phone amp and a long 1/8" cord and they are all monitored up! It's a damn site less expensive than a QSC K10 / 12 (which run in the $800-1K range last I looked).

 

[Frodebro]

An FM9 is the core of my band rig, but I'm the only one using digital. Well, the keyboard player is digital too, but I guess that kinda doesn't count. His Leslie won't fit through the doorway of our practice space.

 

[djd100]

If the band's style doesn't require a lot snare finesse or brushes, I've found quality electric drums work great, sometime with electric cymbals and hat, other times with acoustic cymbals and hat.

We typically use V-Drums playing SSD 5.5 drums live for blues rock, with either the V-Drum cymbals/hat in small venues, or acoustic cymbals/hat in bigger ones. The amount of gear and mics required for a modern drum sound with acoustic drums is simply a PITA, where as with electric drums it's built in via the samples.

IME what is critically important is monitoring (as well as minimum latency), so good IEM's are a must with a separate mix for the drummer so can blast himself without killing the rest of us, just like he does with his acoustic drums LOL (drummers like piano players are more sensitive to latency, as they're used to their instrument being right in front of them)!

 

[2112]

We've done a bunch of shows, usually fly in/fly out shows on remote mining camps, where our drummer has used a Roland SPDS and a kick pedal trigger in place of a full kit. We also rehearse on headphones with him playing his high end electric kit. Loaded with decent samples it's more than satisfying for the context BUT a lot of the nuances & intricacies of the hi-hat and snare (even on the very expensive Roland kit) don't get recreated.

If you treat it like a seperate instrument to an acoustic kit and play to it's strengths an e-kit can be fantastic.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I’m hoping zildjan gets a lot of competition on the new style cymbals for e-drums this year to bring the prices down.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I think "it doesn't fully reproduce every nuance of my playing" is a common comment from all kinds of musicians about the digital version of their instruments. Including those who use these digital instruments regularly. It's not exclusive to drummers.
So I'm not entirely convinced that's where the resistance to e-kits lies.

I think it's more of a natural resistance combined with an outdated view of what a modern e-kit CAN do, even if still not completely free of limitations.

 

[Space Pickle]

A drummer I play with a lot uses mostly a E-kit (Roland). His kick and all his toms are all electronic. However he uses a acoustic snare and traditional metal cymbals with a E-kit. He says he likes the sound and feel of the traditional snare and cymbals better than the electronic one.

I kind of like and can appreciate that method, and try to do the same with guitar. Meaning a hybrid approach, sometimes going all modeling straight to PA and other times mixing modeling with traditional amps. I don't want to rule anything out. Variety is the spice of life.

The feel is a big problem. You have to alter the way you play. If they ever figure out how to make cymbal triggers (especially hi=hats) that play like metal then maybe we'll be onto something. The silent stage thing is a big deal.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I gotta disagree. I would be very reluctant to gig a Nitro just on durability alone. I bought a Strike Pro SE a few years ago, and while it did have some positive points (it enabled me to practice at night) I wouldn't want to be taking it out on gigs. Basically everything is plastic.

Regarding technique, there's a bunch of stuff you can't do yet. You can't play brushes on the snare, you can't do cross-stick, and the hi-hats are absolute jank. My Strike hats have 3 sounds: closed, half-open, and open. It sounds really phoney. The hi-hat playability also sucks. I took a look at the newer Alesis Strata kit online but I wouldn't even consider shelling out 5K for it unless the hats are much improved.

E-kits definitely have their place, but they aren't a complete substitute for the real thing yet.

Yeah I had the Strike Pro module. That was actually the first module I bought. It's.... not great. It worked fine for me for a while because I was basically only using it to send MIDI to the DAW. But even then, I got rid of it as soon as I could. After that, I was using the Roland TD 30, which is actually older than the Strike but much better.

I got the Strata module recently and it's much better than both. I believe the newer generation Nitro Pro also has the BFD engine and that would be better too. pPoint being, these things evolve fast.

BTW, you don't have to shell out 5k to upgrade your rig. Just a module upgrade would be a good start. Then a better snare and hi-hat etc (I recommend Efnotes), you can do this gradually..

 

[newholland]

I have played in 3 bands over the last 20 or so years. All of them were vDrums. Prior to that I had acoustic drums. It was a NIGHTMARE in comparison.

Have had in-ear monitors for about that long as well .... so a completely silent stage.

We can play ANY venue with this setup and we sound equally good at every venue. I really like the tight sound you can get with vDrums vs acoustic drums.

Seriously, I have struggled with loud drummers for years before running across a band that had vDrums. I was amazed at how clean they sounded.

Acoustic drums are so loud that frequently you have no possible way to get the vocals above the mix ..... because at the vocal mic, the stage volume of the cymbals and snare are SOOOO loud that no singer could ever get over them. You turn the vocal mic up, the stage blead from the drums just goes up too. MUSH with no vocal clarity possible.

Of course, you can have great sound from acoustic drums if you are on a large stage and outside .... but you still need a metric crap ton of microphones and processing to get it to the same place vDrums start at!

or just do no mics on drums. in a small venue with a vocal pa and a band that gets dynamics, theres precisely zero issue with balancing drums and band. its how its always been. the issue isnt drums or drummers most times, its trying to sound like a recording at zero volume. its an expectation problem much more than an actual physical issue.