Question for bands using modeling

[pipelineaudio]

In this case it would be a test hearing the output of these devices and just instinctively spotting which one was "a real amp" (which doesn't really apply to guitar anyway) and which was the uh, "other real amp?". The big deal nowadays, especially given most of the recorded output we hear are drum samples anyway, are the cymbals and especially the hi hat, but ghost notes, some types of rolls and a lot of snare work will give it away as well. Also there's the player's experience. A lot of drum techniques just will flat out not work on most e-kits. All that said, pop, P&W, lots of modern country, basically anything where the recording you hear was programmed rather than played works out just fine with an E-Kit. And its not like this doesn't just keep getting better.

Small clubs are facing just bringing in karaoke or low volume DJ's as the NIOSH volume standards replace OSHA, so getting bands onto e-kits would be a massive win for keeping live music alive

 

[GuitarBilly74]

In this case it would be a test hearing the output of these devices and just instinctively spotting which one was "a real amp" (which doesn't really apply to guitar anyway) and which was the uh, "other real amp?". The big deal nowadays, especially given most of the recorded output we hear are drum samples anyway, are the cymbals and especially the hi hat, but ghost notes, some types of rolls and a lot of snare work will give it away as well. Also there's the player's experience. A lot of drum techniques just will flat out not work on most e-kits. All that said, pop, P&W, lots of modern country, basically anything where the recording you hear was programmed rather than played works out just fine with an E-Kit. And its not like this doesn't just keep getting better.

Small clubs are facing just bringing in karaoke or low volume DJ's as the NIOSH volume standards replace OSHA, so getting bands onto e-kits would be a massive win for keeping live music alive

I read this 3x and have no idea what you are talking about

 

[riffy]

I hear you. My band gear is a Marshall 100w 1/2 stack, a 400w bass rig with a 4x10 and an oversized Ludwig kit. I am not changing that anytime soon. Nor I am asking you or anyone to do that, that's not the point I was getting at. I am not arguing analog vs digital as a whole.

My question was why IF you choose to put part of the band on digital/DI, why not the drums?

The guy that plays drums with me, simply can’t afford a good sounding E-kit. It truly does help that he knows how to play with some dynamics though.

 

[Space Pickle]

Few reasons:

-Good e-kits a ridiculously expensive. The new Flagship Roland kit is $11000 CAD before tax. You can get a great acoustic kit (inclusive of everything) for less than half that price.

-Cheaper e-kits aren't very durable and aren't likely able to hold up to serious gigging. They are also lacking in the sound department.

-e-drums aren't the same as electric guitars. Even through a modeller your guitar is still electo-mechanical (like a Rhodes)...on e-drums the drummer isn't playing sounds but triggering them. Even on the top of the line kits the techniques don't quite translate. The hi-hat in particular never seems to play quite right. Maybe this is fixed on the new Roland kit, but I doubt it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I read this 3x and have no idea what you are talking about

An ABX test is a blinded test where you see if you can identify a certain sound or see if you like one sound better than another for instance. Its a listening test between sound A and sound B, but you don't know which is which, so its X until you finish the test and check the results.

ABX test - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Few reasons:

-Good e-kits a ridiculously expensive. The new Flagship Roland kit is $11000 CAD before tax. You can get a great acoustic kit (inclusive of everything) for less than half that price.

-Cheaper e-kits aren't very durable and aren't likely able to hold up to serious gigging. They are also lacking in the sound department.

-e-drums aren't the same as electric guitars. Even through a modeller your guitar is still electo-mechanical (like a Rhodes)...on e-drums the drummer isn't playing sounds but triggering them. Even on the top of the line kits the techniques don't quite translate. The hi-hat in particular never seems to play quite right. Maybe this is fixed on the new Roland kit, but I doubt it.

This is a bit outdated tbh. You'd be surprised how much all these things have improved even on mid priced kits over the last few years.

Watch J-Rod (Janet Jackson's drummer) play this Alesis Nitro Pro. Check out the playing bits and tell me which of his techniques were not correctly reproduced by this 799 kit.



Add a full size bass drum to this and it would look/ sound/ perform fine for 99% of gigs out there. If you go into the $1k+ range it's even better. And obviously you can also build your own like I did and mix and match the components you like better. That won't be anywhere near $11k. Mine was around $2.5k all in. Which is not "cheap". But neither were my Les Pauls/Marshall rig, for example.

This type of POV is a bit like those who tried modeling with the POD 2.0 and wrote if off based on that experience.

 

[Lele]

Watch J-Rod (Janet Jackson's drummer) play this Alesis Nitro Pro and tell me which of his (very advanced) techniques were not correctly reproduced by this 799 kit.

To each their own; no problem about that.
I can only say that in my experience (and ymmv!) Alesis e-kits have excellent sounds, but low reliability in the long term. For this reason I consider only Yamaha and Roland.
And if I want to get a sound module with separate outputs for each percussion (that imho is necessary), unfortunately there is generally almost only the top and most expensive model with that feature.
So I have to consider, just as example, something like Yamaha DTX10K or Roland TD-50K (both about 4000/5000 $).
On the contrary an acoustic set of about 1000$ or even less is (imho) very good to play live, and adding AKG mic set "P" series (500$) you have a complete good drum set to play live.
Of course, everything is imho and ymmv.
And since now I'm more often a sound guy than a band member, I'd love to mix e-kits instead of acoustic drums, so I'm far from biased!

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

This is a bit outdated tbh. You'd be surprised how much all these things have improved even on mid priced kits over the last few years.

Watch J-Rod (Janet Jackson's drummer) play this Alesis Nitro Pro. Check out the playing bits and tell me which of his techniques were not correctly reproduced by this 799 kit.



Add a full size bass drum to this and it would look/ sound/ perform fine for 99% of gigs out there. If you go into the $1k+ range it's even better. And obviously you can also build your own like I did and mix and match the components you like better. That won't be anywhere near $11k. Mine was around $2.5k all in. Which is not "cheap". But neither were my Les Pauls/Marshall rig, for example.

This type of POV is a bit like those who tried modeling with the POD 2.0 and wrote if off based on that experience.

Yup sounds like an Ekit!
Dead obvious giveaway are snarerolls/paradidles.

Would probably work in some music where mixers are dense, but when it’s more open, “plastic fantastic” ruïnes it.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

To each their own; no problem about that.
I can only say that in my experience (and ymmv!) Alesis e-kits have excellent sounds, but low reliability in the long term. For this reason I consider only Yamaha and Roland.
And if I want to get a sound module with separate outputs for each percussion (that imho is necessary), unfortunately there is generally almost only the top and most expensive model with that feature.
So I have to consider, just as example, something like Yamaha DTX10K or Roland TD-50K (both about 4000/5000 $).
On the contrary an acoustic set of about 1000$ or even less is (imho) very good to play live, and adding AKG mic set "P" series (500$) you have a complete good drum set to play live.
Of course, everything is imho and ymmv.
And since now I'm more often a sound guy than a band member, I'd love to mix e-kits instead of acoustic drums, so I'm far from biased!

This is again, a different discussion. Which is what is the ideal rig vs what's good enough to play live.

My current live rig is 2 Les Pauls (at around $2k each), Marshall half stack ( around $1500-4000 depending on what head I'm using that day) and about $700 worth of pedals. So that's $6k-ish if I go with the DSLor more like 9k when I take out the 77 JMP and the Power Station.

I could get a rig that's 1/4 of that and still be very gig worthy. Hell I could go down to 1/10 of that and still be okay. BUT I will not do that

It's a different topic that has nothing to do with digital vs analog imho.

On the Roland TD subject, you can go down one generation to the TD30 and get the functionality you need and still really good sound quality and save up a bit. You could also mix and match components and save up a bit more that way. You don't really have to buy the entire kit.
And once you get a set of drums/triggers you're comfortable with, future upgrades can be module only. There are definitely ways to do it without forking out $5k in one shot. It's not very different than building a guitar rig over time, really.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Yup sounds like an Ekit!
Dead obvious giveaway are snarerolls/paradidles.

Would probably work in some music where mixers are dense, but when it’s more open, “plastic fantastic” ruïnes it.

It sounds like what a $300 guitar into a $300 modeler would sound like vs my Marshalls (or a top shelf digital guitar rig - high quality guitar included of course) Again, different topic.

I don't know if you either didn't understand my original question, or you did and don't have a good answer for it and just try to derail instead. But either way...

 

[GuitarBilly74]

In my mind, when I'm at a show and see a guitarist build up his half stack and a drummer build up his kit, I get a little excited. "Oh shit, here it comes, I'm about to have my ass rocked off" - kind of feeling I get before I would see a band play. I don't get that feeling when I see a modeler and ekit setting up.

As a drummer myself, ekits are fun, cool, and I want a few of them. There have been plenty of times when I go to a jam and someone has one set up and I have a great time. Equally so, there are times that I reach the limitations of what an ekit can do dynamically and long for a real snare or a real ride cymbal.

Sorry this doesn't really answer the question in the OP.

Yeah it doesn't answer the question. But I completely agree with you.
I love having my halfstack on stage and my drummer plays a real kit, we have no tracks.. all that good stuff :)

The question was about those already going the digital path with modeling, ableton sessions for track, IEMs etc - why not drums too? Especially if the goal is a silent stage.

I'm not asking why say, AC/DC is not playing an e-kit lol. I know that answer.

I was asking about bands that are 80% digital already, why not 100%?

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

It sounds like what a $300 guitar into a $300 modeler would sound like vs my Marshalls (or a top shelf digital guitar rig - high quality guitar included of course) Again, different topic.

I don't know if you either didn't understand my original question, or you did and don't have a good answer for it and just try to derail instead. But either way...

dude…I already gave my view on the op…but you keep insluiting me I didn’t get that question.
You post a clip as a testament of quality of an Ekit…and are surprised peeps respond?
#checkingout

 

[GuitarBilly74]

dude…I already gave my view on the op…but you keep insluiting me I didn’t get that question.
You post a clip as a testament of quality of an Ekit…and are surprised peeps respond?
#checkingout

Not sure how I insulted you in any way, other than disagreeing that you were addressing what I had asked.

And the video I posted was specifically about the comment that an ekit doesnt capture the drummer technique, which it mostly does these days

For better sound quality you need a better rig, which costs more. That is true for just about everything out there. . But even the sound quality of that kit would've been "fine" for most local gigs.

 

[PatF]

Real hard hitting drummers can break e-drums quickly. Two drummer friends of mine could not hold back and play with lighter hits. It was built in to their muscle memory. Players that don't regularly break cymbals should do fine for F sake. I think the sound and feel is of good e-drums is awesome.

 

[Dave Lewis]

Robert Palmer was big on using Modelling & Models as was ZZTop

 

[unix-guy]

Robert Palmer was big on using Modelling & Models as was ZZTop

I think maybe you missed the point of the thread, which is about using an electronic drum kit in a live band...

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I think maybe you missed the point of the thread, which is about using an electronic drum kit in a live band...

He's joking. "Modeling" as in female fashion models

 

[Dave Lewis]

Yeah I was joking about the women But not about the drums if you listen you can hear ?
INXS were one of my favourite electronic drum bands

 

[Stratzrus]

We're using eDrums for at least practice, and it's glorious. So much less fatiguing, and recording is super easy. I know why eDrums bug drummers, and I get it. But seriously, acoustic drums are such a loud PITA, even with a dynamic drummer.

We used eDrums for rehearsal in my last band that rehearsed in my apartment in a high rise apartment building. The drummer used real drums for gigs but we couldn't have rehearsed at my place without using eDrums .

Now that they are making e-kits that look like acoustic kits, I imagine it will become more common. I’ve gotta say, there is just something weirder about watching a band with a drummer hitting pads instead of things that look like drums/cymbals.

The drummer in my upcoming band uses eDrums when we rehearse at his place and will be using them at my new place as well.

For gigs? I don't know, never tried it. I could imagine that it would be different and that difference could be problematic for some.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Real hard hitting drummers can break e-drums quickly. Two drummer friends of mine could not hold back and play with lighter hits. It was built in to their muscle memory. Players that don't regularly break cymbals should do fine for F sake. I think the sound and feel is of good e-drums is awesome.

I don’t have high opinions of drummers that continually break cymbals/heads.