E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[DrewJD82]

Also, what's a "reasonable sound" while noting that a "reasonable sound" by your standards may be considered absolute crap by others etc?

You mean like every example of using an e-kit in a live band setting because the cymbals and snares are still trash?

 

[djd100]

For some a proper rock drum sound comprises of compressors, gates, room sim and reverb, along with EQ's which is a PITA unless you travel with your own sound and crew (and it's still a PITA for them LOL!), which is why triggering samples is incredibly common place as all the FX processing is baked in.

Whether you trigger the samples via a tiny eDrum kit, a full size drum shell eDrum kit, or an acoustic kit with triggers doesn't matter except to the drummer, and the sound crew depending on the venue with regards to the acoustic kit's SPL.

Anyway, this is boring so ciao...

 

[djd100]

You mean like every example of using an e-kit in a live band setting because the cymbals and snares are still trash?

So you're saying all drum samples are trash?

I'm out of this BS...

 

[Sascha Franck]

Imagine famous drummers making drum content, expansion packs, grooves, whatever.... which drummers would you want??

Steve Gadd. Vinnie Colaiuta. The guys from Snarky Puppy. Nate Smith. Guys like that.
But I wanted their brains and feel, not necessarily some samples. Alternatively, I'd take a collection of MIDI files they recorded themselves on an e-set. Along with the very sampleset they were using.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Humans have been banging drums for 13,000 odd years. Drums are not the problem; they’ve literally been designed and exist as they currently do for a reason.

The thought of some local band having their badly mixed presets pumping through some mid tier (or worse PA) is not going to sound good, nor be what people consider good “live sound”. It’s just a bad take on every level.

It’s not BS. Have a think about a band doing their own live demos with an ekit and modellers and then try and find one that sounds anything other than shit.

Live sound is nowhere near as difficult as some people want to make it sound.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, re: stage volume (on non IEM gigs):

The most notorious offenders here are singers and kinda often sax players (in case you're unfortunate enough having to deal with them).
Singers seem to think they need to be way above anything else, they also seem to think that this has to be the case at each position on stage, so they can run around like mad. In return, the front vocal monitors are blaring loud already, but as if that wasn't enough, they're usually on each and every other monitor as well. Let alone that all the mic-to-mouth-distance discipline they might show during soundcheck goes completely outta the window once things get a tad hotter during the show.

And then there's always the sax player thinking you'll enjoy him to play straight into your face with all the Kenny G ecstasy possible, as if his f***ing monitor wasn't already loud enough to supply the entire venue with more than enough volume.

 

[HotRats]

For some a proper rock drum sound comprises of compressors, gates, room sim and reverb, along with EQ's which is a PITA unless you travel with your own sound and crew (and it's still a PITA for them LOL!), which is why triggering samples is incredibly common place as all the FX processing is baked in.

Whether you trigger the samples via a tiny eDrum kit, a full size drum shell eDrum kit, or an acoustic kit with triggers doesn't matter except to the drummer, and the sound crew depending on the venue with regards to the acoustic kit's SPL.

Anyway, this is boring so ciao...

I don't understand why you're being so hyperbolic in your statements.

It's quite obvious this conversation is about small bands gigging in pubs, small venues and occasionally bigger stages.

From the opening post ....

Is it the time to go for e-drums for rock, at least for small bands that need their rigs to be as compact as possible?

 

[DrewJD82]

So you're saying all drum samples are trash?

I'm out of this BS...

I don’t think so? Lemme check, memory is going bad…..

You mean like every example of using an e-kit in a live band setting because the cymbals and snares are still trash?

From my end it doesn’t appear I said all drum samples are trash, it shows “every example of using an e-kit in a live band setting because the cymbals and snares are still trash?”, if that’s not showing on your end I’ll need to ask for more assistance from Xenforo, dunno how they expect us to run a forum when they’re changing our words for other users. Can you screenshot my post so I can see how it’s showing up on your end?

 

[DrewJD82]

Whether you trigger the samples via a tiny eDrum kit, a full size drum shell eDrum kit, or an acoustic kit with triggers doesn't matter except to the drummer, and the sound crew depending on the venue with regards to the acoustic kit's SPL.

I mean, I’ve said repeatedly in here that e-kit cymbals and snares aren’t even close to realistic enough for live performance…..I’m not the drummer or the sound crew.

I still don’t believe anyone has posted an example of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting……I wonder why that is.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I mean, I’ve said repeatedly in here that e-kit cymbals and snares aren’t even close to realistic enough for live performance…..I’m not the drummer or the sound crew.

I still don’t believe anyone has posted an example of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting……I wonder why that is.

I could see cymbals being a sticking point for drummers, just in feel alone. But hasn't Butch Vig been using E-drums for a while now? Probably sounds like Garbage though...

 

[DrewJD82]

Fwiw, re: stage volume (on non IEM gigs):

The most notorious offenders here are singers and kinda often sax players (in case you're unfortunate enough having to deal with them).
Singers seem to think they need to be way above anything else, they also seem to think that this has to be the case at each position on stage, so they can run around like mad. In return, the front vocal monitors are blaring loud already, but as if that wasn't enough, they're usually on each and every other monitor as well. Let alone that all the mic-to-mouth-distance discipline they might show during soundcheck goes completely outta the window once things get a tad hotter during the show.

And then there's always the sax player thinking you'll enjoy him to play straight into your face with all the Kenny G ecstasy possible, as if his f***ing monitor wasn't already loud enough to supply the entire venue with more than enough volume.

I mean, it is pretty important for a singer to hear themselves onstage. A guitarist won’t blow their fingers out if they can’t hear themselves onstage, nor will bass players or drummers, but the road to live music is paved with vocalists horror stories about not having adequate monitoring live and singing with far more force than they should so they can hear themselves.

I wouldn’t sing in a band again without IEMs and it has nothin’ to do with drummers and everything to do with the general state of live venue’s monitoring, lack thereof or monitor guys who walk away from the desk.

More than I’ve had issues with drummers or guitarists that were too loud, shitty monitoring/monitor “engineers” have been the biggest issues. They either don’t turn them up loud enough or they’ll blare it and walk away.

I always ran my own vocal effects live, compression being a big one as I’d use different settings for different songs to get what I needed, running my own monitor mix would just be an extension of that.

 

[DrewJD82]

I could see cymbals being a sticking point for drummers, just in feel alone. But hasn't Butch Vig been using E-drums for a while now? Probably sounds like Garbage though...

For sure, but they’re not exactly going for an acoustic kit sound in the majority of their songs.

I posted the Geoff Tate vid earlier in this thread to give a clear example of why they’re not ready for live use yet. If they’re not going to sound close to decent through a $1,500,000 PA system, they’re definitely not going to sound decent in anything less than that.

Both clips are timestamped, first note the differences in hi-hat dynamics and get ready for the ride cymbals following, then note how “amazing” that e-kit snare sounds in comparison to the vid above, particularly if they do a snare roll.

Real drums-


Now the same song played on an e-kit-


Do the pro-ekit people hear that, or drums just aren’t that important to them? (legit question)

 

[deathbyguitar]

I still don’t believe anyone has posted an example of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting……I wonder why that is.

I think this is a halfway decent example although I fully expect to get ripped to shreds for posting this LOL



That's me playing a Yamaha DTX Multi 12 as a MIDI controller. Drum samples are all Metal Machine EZX. Drums, both guitars and bass were mixed through my Axe-FX going into my own PA speakers and subwoofer. Used house mics and House PA for vocals which was a mistake. But I remember the overall instrumental balance and punchiness in the room feeling really good at the time. Everything was loud enough to have a good impact but not so loud that people's ears were being shredded. This was before I put everything in a rolling shallow rack with an IEM system and mixer

 

[spawnofthesith]

I’m not anti e kit by any means


But the notion that “you can’t get a good mix with acoustic drums” or that it’s some sort of massive problem on nearly any stage (ok before someone brings up a wine bar, whatever man. Even then the type of drummer is that belongs at a wine bar probably has an appropriate size kit as well as grasp on dynamics) is utterly preposterous

I trust “sound guys” that are trying to claim that acoustic drums are a nightmare to mix even less than the ones that think micing a cab is aome sort of challenge

 

[spawnofthesith]

I’m potentially willing to believe that Denver is some sort of fantasy bubble anomaly clouding my judgement (because let’s face it Denver is a bit of a fantasy land )

But realistically I might hear one bad mix for every 20 awesome mixes. And that’s heavily including local acts

 

[spawnofthesith]

Stand out “bad mixes” in recent memory:


Animals as leaders last year - sounded awful. Plini opening for then sounded great though

Ween 2019 - wasn’t even really the mix, there was some seriously abrasive noise/feedback going on through the whole show but hey just made it all the browner

At the Drive in ‘17 or ‘18 I think…. Venue already notorious for bad sound. And some FOH shit literally broke halfway through the show and caused a delay

None of those were because of acoustic drums…..

 

[EOengineer]

I think this is a halfway decent example although I fully expect to get ripped to shreds for posting this LOL



That's me playing a Yamaha DTX Multi 12 as a MIDI controller. Drum samples are all Metal Machine EZX. Drums, both guitars and bass were mixed through my Axe-FX going into my own PA speakers and subwoofer. Used house mics and House PA for vocals which was a mistake. But I remember the overall instrumental balance and punchiness in the room feeling really good at the time. Everything was loud enough to have a good impact but not so loud that people's ears were being shredded. This was before I put everything in a rolling shallow rack with an IEM system and mixer

Thanks for sharing! It takes some guts to share music on the interwebs today, especially in a contentious thread.

Are you all consistently gigging with the electronic kit setup or was this more of a one-off? Just curious how it’s been for you. We rehearse weekly with SD3 but gigs are typically acoustic kits. We keep kicking around trying something very similar to what you’re doing in that video.

Overall, while I’m sure the experience in the room is quite a bit different from having a loud drummer on an acoustic kits, I thought the end result was actually quite pleasing. It sounded punchy and nicely balanced, and didn’t seem like the room was getting crushed with volume.

There’s a local bar band here (covers) that gigs with an ekit and they usually sound pretty good too.

FWIW - if you’re doing this a lot you might want to invest in SD3. You’ll get more velocity layers and control over your response curves. That can make some pretty significant contributions to helping things feel and sound a little closer to natural…or as far as the current tech gets.

Stand out “bad mixes” in recent memory:


Animals as leaders last year - sounded awful. Plini opening for then sounded great though

Ween 2019 - wasn’t even really the mix, there was some seriously abrasive noise/feedback going on through the whole show but hey just made it all the browner

At the Drive in ‘17 or ‘18 I think…. Venue already notorious for bad sound. And some FOH shit literally broke halfway through the show and caused a delay

None of those were because of acoustic drums…..

ATDI must have been a wild show. Those guys have always struck me as having a really high stage volume, would not be surprised if their shows weren’t the easiest to engineer. Some rooms are just hard though.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I mean, it is pretty important for a singer to hear themselves onstage.

I'm pretty aware of that. But I'm not talking "I need to hear myself loud in any case" levels but about deafening levels. Levels forcing the entire rest of the band to butcher their instruments.
IMO, singers should go for IEMs whenever possible.

You know, very rarely, I actually sing something live myself. And when I was doing so some weeks ago, I had to use the main singers mic because I had none for myself. What hit me from the vocal monitors was quite unbelievable. Instantly my entire head was drowned in vocals, no chance to hear anything else.

More than I’ve had issues with drummers or guitarists that were too loud, shitty monitoring/monitor “engineers” have been the biggest issues. They either don’t turn them up loud enough or they’ll blare it and walk away.

Uh, don't start me on monitor guys. The very reason why I am always asking whether there's an option to remote control at least my own monitor (I must have like all existing monitoring apps installed on my phone by now).

 

[djd100]

I mean, I’ve said repeatedly in here that e-kit cymbals and snares aren’t even close to realistic enough for live performance…..I’m not the drummer or the sound crew.

I still don’t believe anyone has posted an example of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting……I wonder why that is.

Geez, the better eDrums play high quality samples with many velocity layers, use round robin multi-sample techniques to avoid sounding like Max Headroom, and you can layer multiple sounds etc, plus all sounds include all the FX processing that's typically lacking on acoustic kits unless you tour with your own sound and crew, plus they can do it at any required SPL (just like guitar amp modelers, sampled pianos, string libraries, synths etc).

Yes, eDrums don't allow the drummer to use all of their acoustic drum techniques, but otherwise the sampled cymbals and drums can sound fine within their triggering limitations "if" the drummer has the skills to adapt to them, live or in the studio.

This kit could easily sound great with anyone live or in the studio for rock, and with full sized shells it even looks the part...

The sounds inside Mimic Pro are the best drum samples ever created from the Steven Slate
Drum Library (SSD). Mimic Pro’s factory sound library has the newest SSD5 Deluxe 2 drum
samples library and components from the SSD4 Deluxe 1 drum sample library. These are all full
resolution multi-mic 24-bit samples with velocity layers. They have alternative hits per each
velocity layer which is also called Round-Robin. Another feature of Mimic Pro is Articulations,
the area where the player strikes the drum and how the characteristics of their technique are
translated. Mimic Pro’s factory library has up to 28 velocity layers with up to 12 Round-Robin
hits per each velocity layer (that is an equivalent of 336 velocity layers in ‘linear layout’). These
hits in combination with the number of channels in the samples plus the number of
articulations, gives the user up to 3000 samples per instrument. With this new powerful
physical modeling engine, Mimic Pro now supports up to 4096 velocities. Even if an instrument
has 28 velocities, it will still have 4096 levels of dynamics, or volume. This gives users
6 thousands of sound nuances on each instrument, something never possible in electronic
drums before Pearl’s Mimic

That's it folks as I don't care if you use eDrums or not, or how you sound in SPL restricted settings, however blanket statements that eDrums can't be used live is simply BS, and way behind the times and current technology.

 

[EOengineer]

Geez, the better eDrums play high quality samples with many velocity layers, use round robin multi-sample techniques to avoid sounding like Max Headroom, and you can layer multiple sounds etc, plus all sounds include all the FX processing that's typically lacking on acoustic kits unless you tour with your own sound and crew, plus they can do it at any required SPL (just like guitar amp modelers, sampled pianos, string libraries, synths etc).

Yes, eDrums don't allow the drummer to use all of their acoustic drum techniques, but otherwise the sampled cymbals and drums can sound fine within their triggering limitations "if" the drummer has the skills to adapt to them, live or in the studio.

This kit could easily sound great with anyone live or in the studio for rock, and with full sized shells it even looks the part...




That's it folks as I don't care if you use eDrums or not, or how you sound in SPL restricted settings, however blanket statements that eDrums can't be used live is simply BS, and way behind the times and current technology.

I’m very pro EDrum, this does not sound natural to me. I’m not a fan of the slate stuff though.

I personally think SD3 does a much better job. It still not EXACTLY like an acoustic kit but can work well in certain genres and production styles.

IMO Toontrack is still the leader in that space.