Question for bands using modeling

[paisleywookiee]

Just remind your drummer that they can be replaced with a laptop, EZ Drummer 3, and some tenacity. So quit yer bitchin', and get an eKit.

 

[EOengineer]

I played in a band that used an ekit for years….and hated it. (As a guitarplayer in that band)
Mostly large stages, big fat PA stacks, all the monitoring on stage one could hope for.

It was fine at foh, but it sucks on stage imo. Drums through a wedge is awfull compared to a real kit.
All the glue for a nice stage sound is gone.
Same effect as guitarsound through a wedge…but magnified 10x

On iem maybe the effect is less dramatic…
Maybe its a for loud drummers…but id rather see that fixed with a drummer that controls his volume.

It’s night and day difference through IEMs.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I played in a band that used an ekit for years….and hated it. (As a guitarplayer in that band)
Mostly large stages, big fat PA stacks, all the monitoring on stage one could hope for.

It was fine at foh, but it sucks on stage imo. Drums through a wedge is awfull compared to a real kit.
All the glue for a nice stage sound is gone.
Same effect as guitarsound through a wedge…but magnified 10x

On iem maybe the effect is less dramatic…
Maybe its a for loud drummers…but id rather see that fixed with a drummer that controls his volume.

I agree with all that. For the record, my band is on amps and a kit for live shows.

My question is more along the lines of IF you're going digital, why not go all digital? It seems weird to me to replace some instruments but not the biggest/loudest one?

 

[sleewell]

it just never seems like sound guys never care about drums being loud. its always turn that guitar amp down hahahaha. i think they can usually mix around loud drums but a loud directional guitar amp is harder

 

[JCW308]

Wouldn't replacing the drums with an ekit also save on freight? They're much lighter too.

We found that they were not lighter at all, and they were a huge added hassle over a normal drum kit.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Yeah, our kit is one of the Alesis ones, and even with the mesh pads and such, it still looks goofy.

Isn't it mostly the bass drum though? If you set an e-drum kit with a regular looking bass drum (like the guy from Def Leppard), that looks pretty normal, no?

I paid $400 for the Pearl e-bass drum on my kit. Not a huge investment...

 

[GuitarBilly74]

We found that they were not lighter at all, and they were a huge added hassle over a normal drum kit.

They definitely can be lighter. Mine is like 1/2 the weight of my regular kit.

How are they a huge hassle over a fully mic'd drum kit? My kit is set up for studio only, so I have cables all over since I don't move it. But if I were to set it up for live, I'd route the cables inside the rack and it would be a 5 minute setup.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Isn't it mostly the bass drum though? If you set an e-drum kit with a regular looking bass drum (like the guy from Def Leppard), that looks pretty normal, no?

I paid $400 for the Pearl e-bass drum on my kit. Not a huge investment...

Yeah, now that you mention it. Mostly the bass drum is the issue, appearance wise. I think if it continues this way, then the higher end Alesis and Roland stuff that looks acoustic will become cheaper and more popular.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Yeah I recently saw Geoff Tate's and they're all digital now, including drums. And I have to say it was a MUCH better live mix than the usual modeling with a kit especially on smaller venues where you can still hear the kit from the stage and not FOH only .

So I'm starting to think the choice of analog vs digital is better when done globally i.e. full band.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Yeah I recently saw Geoff Tate's and they're all digital now, including drums. And I have to say it was a MUCH better live mix than the usual modeling with a kit especially on smaller venues where you can still hear the kit from the stage and not FOH only .

So I'm starting to think the choice of analog vs digital is better when done globally i.e. full band.

It certainly makes a lot of sense. I mean, going all the way back to my days as a trumpet player in a jazz band, as good as acoustic sets sound they're annoying as hell . Band director constantly yelling at the drummer to play with better dynamics, and making us grateful for songs that called for rods or brushes.

 

[Lele]

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too? Seems like that would be the biggest rig and loudest source of stage volume. And e-drums sound pretty good these days, I think.

First of all, a barely decent electronic drum kit is extremely more expensive than an acoustic drum kit. And I think this is a major point for any band and drummer. Not to mention the additional cost of a control unit with the faders and the separate outputs for each element (in my opinion it'd be essential for mixing and playing live). Then you need also a good powered monitor for it.
So you would end up with a cost that is 5 to 10 times higher than a acoustic drums...
Then we could discuss about ghost notes, drum technique, and feeling. But these problems come second.

 

[paisleywookiee]

First of all, a barely decent electronic drum kit is extremely more expensive than an acoustic drum kit. And I think this is a major point for any band and drummer. Not to mention the additional cost of a control unit with the faders and the separate outputs for each element (in my opinion it'd be essential for mixing and playing live). Then you need also a good powered monitor for it.
So you would end up with a cost that is 5 to 10 times higher than a acoustic drums...
Then we could discuss about ghost notes, drum technique, and feeling. But these problems come second.

I don't agree with most of this. Yes, monitoring is important, but easily accomplished with a QSC powered monitor. Prices on good kits are dropping. Ghost notes aren't really an issue either. But this is going off of what my drummer says, so I suppose you'll have to argue with him if you want. He's got zero complaints with the Alesis though, and is GASing for the big dog kit, which is still less than what he's got invested in acoustic drums.

 

[Lele]

Yes, monitoring is important, but easily accomplished with a QSC powered monitor.

Well, a QSC monitor is already as expensive as an acoustic drum set, specially if we look at the big second hand market.
And there's the big matter of the e-drum sound module. Imho if you want to use your e-kit for live shows, you need separate faders and outputs for each elements. And in this case the e-kits are very (very) expensive. If you content with a simple stereo outputs and with a sound module with the drum mixer hidden in the small display menu pushing some button sequence then you can save a lot of money but you'll "pay the price" when you want to mix properly your band in a live context.

 

[deathbyguitar]

I've played e-kits live for years with rock and metal bands and I wouldn't dream of doing it any other way. But that's mainly because I care about how it sounds to the crowd first, everything else is a distant second. Lately I've been playing a Yamaha sample pad connected to Superior Drummer because it sounds amazing, takes up very little space in my car and also nobody fucking cares. IMO, the ends justify the means. Plus the Axe-FX is an excellent low-latency interface for live e-drums. No glitches or anything.

I'm playing a gig tonight with Superior Drummer as our drummer with all instruments going through my Axe-FX, including the drums. The venue has some old JBL speakers on poles but they get plenty loud so I'm fine with that. We were able to practice there the other day and it sounded brutal as hell. Everything is pre-mixed through my Midas MR12 and we're on in-ears so our setup is literally like 5 minutes.

Damnit I love modern technology.

 

[deathbyguitar]

Just remind your drummer that they can be replaced with a laptop, EZ Drummer 3, and some tenacity. So quit yer bitchin', and get an eKit.

That's verbatim what we did (except Superior Drummer) and our band finally sounds like it's supposed to.

 

[iaresee]

Because you have to convince our drummer, not me.

I'd love for him to have a volume knob. Guy takes a lot of angst and anger out on that kit when we play!

 

[paisleywookiee]

Well, a QSC monitor is already as expensive as an acoustic drum set, specially if we look at the big second hand market.
And there's the big matter of the e-drum sound module. Imho if you want to use your e-kit for live shows, you need separate faders and outputs for each elements. And in this case the e-kits are very (very) expensive. If you content with a simple stereo outputs and with a sound module with the drum mixer hidden in the small display menu pushing some button sequence then you can save a lot of money but you'll "pay the price" when you want to mix properly your band in a live context.

Your drummer must really like cheap acoustic drums! Cost is relative, and personal. A good acoustic set is easily well over $2000. QSC monitor costs less than $600.

 

[ian_dissonance]

A $1k ekit is going sound as good or better than a cheap acoustic kit, and consistently so.

 

[paisleywookiee]

A $1k ekit is going sound as good or better than a cheap acoustic kit, and consistently so.

Yup.

 

[Eagle]

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too? Seems like that would be the biggest rig and loudest source of stage volume. And e-drums sound pretty good these days, I think.

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

Because it looks even worse than it sounds?
It all starts looking a bit karaoke by the time people realise nobody is playing the keyboard with the use of backing tracks and then the drums go.