Question about Intervals

[Eagle]

Nobody ever said anything else. It was just you telling me that one should associate a shape with a mode. Which is like yesteryears methodology. If at all.

It’s a method that works but the shape is dependent on the circumstances. Whatever works for the player to not think about theory while playing but knowing the effects of the mood created by the interval from the 1 you are playing too at any given moment. To get that down requires lot of internalising of practical shapes . I don’t see how else you could do it without having to think about every instance. I have a scale shape in my head for every inversion of all the chords I come across in my playing and run it across the fingerboard using caged but playing 3nps on 7-8or 9 note scales and 2-3 nps on arpeggios and penta/ hexatonic scales. Works for me ,and Guthrie and Frank and John and everyone else who I have ever had a conversation about it with.
John McLaughlin is insanely good at this and this is exactly how he sees it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It’s a method that works but the shape is dependent on the circumstances.

Which circumstances?

I have a scale shape in my head for every inversion of all the chords I come across in my playing

A scale per chord inversion? Wth?

Sorry, but all you're writing is reading like some gobbledygook. You can't come up with any practical examples at all, it all sounds like copied from whatever strange sources or like a rather incomplete understanding of these things.
And no, all your namedropping doesn't help at all, either.

 

[Eagle]

Which circumstances?



A scale per chord inversion? Wth?

Sorry, but all you're writing is reading like some gobbledygook. You can't come up with any practical examples at all, it all sounds like copied from whatever strange sources or like a rather incomplete understanding of these things.
And no, all your namedropping doesn't help at all, either.

It’s perfectly clear and it’s your understanding that seems lacking.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It’s perfectly clear and it’s your understanding that seems lacking.

Pardon?

I have a scale shape in my head for every inversion of all the chords I come across in my playing

That is just nonsense.

And to get things straight once and forever: I have studied that kinda thing at a music university (not some private school any hacks can attend) and my diploma thesis has been largely about how to explore various methodologies of teaching that very kinda stuff.
Further, I can backup anything I'm writing with actual examples. And not only that, I can as well back it up by playing something and recording it.
None of this could be said about you. Not at all.

So, accusing me of a lack of understanding when coming up with what is nothing else but some weird word salad is, well, quite "adventurous".

 

[Eagle]

Pardon?



That is just nonsense.

And to get things straight once and forever: I have studied that kinda thing at a music university (not some private school any hacks can attend) and my diploma thesis has been largely about how to explore various methodologies of teaching that very kinda stuff.
Further, I can backup anything I'm writing with actual examples. And not only that, I can as well back it up by playing something and recording it.
None of this could be said about you. Not at all.

So, accusing me of a lack of understanding when coming up with what is nothing else but some weird word salad is, well, quite "adventurous".

You show no understanding whatsoever beyond the basic concept.
What I said was clear to anyone that actually understands the subject.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You show no understanding whatsoever beyond the basic concept.
What I said was clear to anyone that actually understands the subject.

Yeah, so clear that you COMPLETELY fail to explain it. And you didn't even mention what that "basic concept" was.
Seriously, stick with the things you have an idea about. This topic right here very clearly isn't one of them,

 

[Sascha Franck]

But hey, let's do it this way: I record an easy backing in, say, G minor using various chord inversions and you play the shapes that you're talking about over it. Up to it?

 

[Eagle]

But hey, let's do it this way: I record an easy backing in, say, G minor using various chord inversions and you play the shapes that you're talking about over it. Up to it?

I don’t have to prove anything I’ve been playing for 45 years.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I don’t have to prove anything I’ve been playing for 45 years.

Given the nonsense you're posting in this very thread, you have learned less in these 45 years than some of my students in 2 months.
And besides, this is such a stereotype answer, it's embarassing.

 

[Eagle]

Given the nonsense you're posting in this very thread, you have learned less in these 45 years than some of my students in 2 months.
And besides, this is such a stereotype answer, it's embarassing.

You just don’t understand it that pretty obviously the problem.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You just don’t understand it that pretty obviously the problem.

What a load of nonsense. I can talk the talk *and* walk the walk. You can only do the former. As you have by now proven multiple times.

 

[JasonE]

I think I am following what Andy is saying but man that really seems like an over complicated way of doing things. Way more memorization that what is needed, IMHO. I know we are all different and learn as well as retain things differently. I am not sure this method would get me anywhere good.

 

[JasonE]

But hey, let's do it this way: I record an easy backing in, say, G minor using various chord inversions and you play the shapes that you're talking about over it. Up to it?

This would actually be interesting just from a learning aspect. This goes directly at the issue I was talking about early on in this thread. It is getting to the point of the rubber meeting the road and digging into how to actually apply the theory to the fretboard.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Is G the relative minor

Hello all:

I am mostly a beginner and have been learning pentatonic, diatonic scales and the like. I heard about using 3rds, 6ths, etc., in music so I started to work out what I *think* is right on the fretboard using the C Major scale.

I started by overlaying the notes of the C Major scale on the fretboard and then using intervals of 3rds I mapped out the 1st and 2nd strings. Interestingly the note pairs match the 1 and 3 notes of the chord triads shown in the C Major Chord scale (I inserted the associated Chord at the bottom at the centerline between the notes and also noted the 1,3,5 notes of the triad.

Two questions:
1. Am I even remotely right in what I have laid out for the 3rds for the first two strings? I.e., is my logic correct?
2. If I play these pairs of thirds notes along with a backing track in C Major playing the correct pair with the actual chord being played on the backing track, of course they sound like they go with it but is that really what you are doing with these thirds?

Thank you in advance!

View attachment 36794

To get back to the OP, it seems to me that a really important point has not been addressed here -- OP you are talking about harmonizing a diatonic scale based on scale degree. While some people talk about that as "playing 6ths" or "harmonizing in 3rds" or other such terminology, it is kind of different than what intervals actually are.

Knowing the diatonic scale, how to harmonize it -- either to create chords or to play harmonized melodies or whatever -- is very useful. You seem to be on the right track with that.

Intervals are also pretty important. They are not related to any particular scale. Getting to where you can recognize the sonic characteristic of the various intervals by ear (ear training) is really, really, important and why @Sascha Franck is bang on correct that playing lots of music is way more important than memorizing the fretboard as a beginner. An intermediate player that can HEAR intervals is going to be able to make a LOT more music than an intermediate player that can find any note on the fretboard and quickly play every scale/mode off of that note.

Get to where you can start to "hear" these, both played melodically (i.e., two individual notes played in a row on a timeline) AND harmonically (two notes played simultaneously as a diad/double-stop/whatever you wanna call it). There are lots of free/cheap apps on your phone that can help with this.

Unison
Minor 2nd (1/2 step)
Major 2nd (whole step)
Minor 3rd (whole-and-a-half step)
Major 3rd (2 whole steps)
Perfect 4th (2.5 steps)
diminished 5th (3 steps)
Perfect 5th (3.5 steps)
Augmented 5th/Minor 6th (4 steps)
Major 6th (4.5 steps)
Minor 7th (5 steps)
Major 7th (5.5 steps)
Octave (6 steps)

 

[Eagle]

I think I am following what Andy is saying but man that really seems like an over complicated way of doing things. Way more memorization that what is needed, IMHO. I know we are all different and learn as well as retain things differently. I am not sure this method would get me anywhere good.

It’s not really because most of it has multiple uses.
For instance here is a beginner example ;
Playing A Dorian over Am .
Yes it’s the notes of the G major scale but it’s not helpful to think about it in these terms other than if you know your way around the fingerboard in G you already have the shapes .
But you need to move the function of the root to the A. So you can use the Dorian tonality. It’s now a scale containing a flat 3rd and a flat 7th which is very different sounding to G major in the new context .It’s necessary to use this information in order to understand modal tonality . It’s not just playing G over Am even if that is actually what the notes are. You use the new interval relation to A to tell your story. This is what most people take the longest time to actually understand. The fish still hasn’t got it.
It’s a good idea to practice modal scales in relative positions to their parent scale and also all in the same key root to root to learn the sound of each mode in context to the same starting point. So play G major then G Dorian ( notes of the F major scale) learning the new functions ( so knowing the interval relation to the 1st in Dorian. As you can see from this example it is not much physical shape learning and a lot of reused shapes from a different perspective . A bit like look at your garden from the street instead of the house. Everything is the same but different at the same time.
I hope this is clear.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It’s not really because most of it has multiple uses.
For instance here is a beginner example ;
Playing A Dorian over Am .
Yes it’s the notes of the G major scale but it’s not helpful to think about it in these terms other than if you know your way around the fingerboard in G you already have the shapes .
But you need to move the function of the root to the A. So you can use the Dorian tonality. It’s now a scale containing a flat 3rd and a flat 7th which is very different sounding to G major in the new context .It’s necessary to use this information in order to understand modal tonality . It’s not just playing G over Am even if that is actually what the notes are. You use the new interval relation to A to tell your story. This is what most people take the longest time to actually understand.

Those have got to be the first really useful bits of properly presented information coming from you in this thread. I'm actually wondering why it took you so long to come up with it.

 

[JasonE]

It’s not really because most of it has multiple uses.
For instance here is a beginner example ;
Playing A Dorian over Am .
Yes it’s the notes of the G major scale but it’s not helpful to think about it in these terms other than if you know your way around the fingerboard in G you already have the shapes .
But you need to move the function of the root to the A. So you can use the Dorian tonality. It’s now a scale containing a flat 3rd and a flat 7th which is very different sounding to G major in the new context .It’s necessary to use this information in order to understand modal tonality . It’s not just playing G over Am even if that is actually what the notes are. You use the new interval relation to A to tell your story. This is what most people take the longest time to actually understand. The fish still hasn’t got it.
It’s a good idea to practice modal scales in relative positions to their parent scale and also all in the same key root to root to learn the sound of each mode in context to the same starting point. So play G major then G Dorian ( notes of the F major scale) learning the new functions ( so knowing the interval relation to the 1st in Dorian. As you can see from this example it is not much physical shape learning and a lot of reused shapes from a different perspective . A bit like look at your garden from the street instead of the house. Everything is the same but different at the same time.
I hope this is clear.

Yep, I am following you. It is really about target notes. I come at it from a little different angle. When playing the G major scale over Am the notes you typically want to target are the ones that are a half step apart. That will give you the modal tonality. And don't even think pentatonic because that scale eliminates the notes you need to get the modal tonality.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

It’s not really because most of it has multiple uses.
For instance here is a beginner example ;
Playing A Dorian over Am .
Yes it’s the notes of the G major scale but it’s not helpful to think about it in these terms other than if you know your way around the fingerboard in G you already have the shapes .
But you need to move the function of the root to the A. So you can use the Dorian tonality. It’s now a scale containing a flat 3rd and a flat 7th which is very different sounding to G major in the new context .It’s necessary to use this information in order to understand modal tonality . It’s not just playing G over Am even if that is actually what the notes are. You use the new interval relation to A to tell your story. This is what most people take the longest time to actually understand. The fish still hasn’t got it.
It’s a good idea to practice modal scales in relative positions to their parent scale and also all in the same key root to root to learn the sound of each mode in context to the same starting point. So play G major then G Dorian ( notes of the F major scale) learning the new functions ( so knowing the interval relation to the 1st in Dorian. As you can see from this example it is not much physical shape learning and a lot of reused shapes from a different perspective . A bit like look at your garden from the street instead of the house. Everything is the same but different at the same time.
I hope this is clear.

If you want to tell a story and are still relying on shapes...well, you and I play guitar very differently. If I'm playing in A dorian, the muscle memory part of it is still very much G-major shape. The thing that keeps me playing those shapes in A tonality rather than...any other tonality, though, is my ear. The thing that is guiding my story is my ear.

 

[Eagle]

If you want to tell a story and are still relying on shapes...well, you and I play guitar very differently. If I'm playing in A dorian, the muscle memory part of it is still very much G-major shape. The thing that keeps me playing those shapes in A tonality rather than...any other tonality, though, is my ear. The thing that is guiding my story is my ear.

The shape is just the foundation and I was talking from the perspective of acquiring the skills to fluidly play over anything. All the options under your fingertips. Obviously you are guided by your ear but the thread is about embedded it and I don’t hear too much people playing anything with any complexity without having this foundation.

 

[Eagle]

If you want to tell a story and are still relying on shapes...well, you and I play guitar very differently. If I'm playing in A dorian, the muscle memory part of it is still very much G-major shape. The thing that keeps me playing those shapes in A tonality rather than...any other tonality, though, is my ear. The thing that is guiding my story is my ear.

Allan Holdsworth saw everything in shapes his whole career and music as maths. We all come at it from different angles when it comes to improvisation.