Question about Intervals

bryarblue72

Newbie
Messages
7
Hello all:

I am mostly a beginner and have been learning pentatonic, diatonic scales and the like. I heard about using 3rds, 6ths, etc., in music so I started to work out what I *think* is right on the fretboard using the C Major scale.

I started by overlaying the notes of the C Major scale on the fretboard and then using intervals of 3rds I mapped out the 1st and 2nd strings. Interestingly the note pairs match the 1 and 3 notes of the chord triads shown in the C Major Chord scale (I inserted the associated Chord at the bottom at the centerline between the notes and also noted the 1,3,5 notes of the triad.

Two questions:
1. Am I even remotely right in what I have laid out for the 3rds for the first two strings? I.e., is my logic correct?
2. If I play these pairs of thirds notes along with a backing track in C Major playing the correct pair with the actual chord being played on the backing track, of course they sound like they go with it but is that really what you are doing with these thirds?

Thank you in advance!

IMG_2520.jpg
 
1. Am I even remotely right in what I have laid out for the 3rds for the first two strings? I.e., is my logic correct?
Yes, your observations are correct…I’m not sure about the logic.
In my mind starting with the fretboard instead of basic musical principles confuses things a wee bit.
The guitar has the pitfall to do everything visual, and forget about the musical context…and end up pushing dots instead of sounds.

Tip:
Understand what makes a major scale a major scale (the distance between notes, whole/half steps)
Understand what chords, of what quality (maj/min/dim) can be constructed from the major scale..
C E G
D F A
E G B
Etc etc…get the cadence?
Understand what the interval between root, third, fifth is …for maj, min and dim chords.

When you get the above…your next step is to apply it to the fretboard, based on the intervals between scale notes and chords. And yeah…first you will be cursing like a kozak cause it’s hard brainwork..but you will learn to play whole steps, minor 3rds, major 3rds, fifths on the neck.

Tbh…I’d be carefull using paper and visualizations, you are at risk of loosing the connection to musical properties. Play a scale based on your knowledge of its structure, not based on memorizing a shape. Same for chords or intervals. Harder at first…but it will pay off!
 
Yes, your observations are correct…I’m not sure about the logic.
In my mind starting with the fretboard instead of basic musical principles confuses things a wee bit.
The guitar has the pitfall to do everything visual, and forget about the musical context…and end up pushing dots instead of sounds.

Tip:
Understand what makes a major scale a major scale (the distance between notes, whole/half steps)
Understand what chords, of what quality (maj/min/dim) can be constructed from the major scale..
C E G
D F A
E G B
Etc etc…get the cadence?
Understand what the interval between root, third, fifth is …for maj, min and dim chords.

When you get the above…your next step is to apply it to the fretboard, based on the intervals between scale notes and chords. And yeah…first you will be cursing like a kozak cause it’s hard brainwork..but you will learn to play whole steps, minor 3rds, major 3rds, fifths on the neck.

Tbh…I’d be carefull using paper and visualizations, you are at risk of loosing the connection to musical properties. Play a scale based on your knowledge of its structure, not based on memorizing a shape. Same for chords or intervals. Harder at first…but it will pay off!
Thank you so much for the detailed response!

I see what you are talking about on the "cadence" you described to build the I ii iii IV V vi vii chords in the the chord scale.... So if I am understanding it here for a chord you have the base note of the scale and then there is the minor 3rd (3 semitones) or major 3rd (4 semitones) and finally the perfect fifth (7 semitones). So then the idea is to not try to "map" them out on the fretboard but to get to "know" all the fretboard notes and the intervals between them and finally to be able to utilize those intervals in a creative way to produce the sounds/progressions you are trying to achieve? Gee, I feel like I have had a disconnect the whole time I've been trying to learn how to play. Over the last couple of years my guitar teacher has had me learn a bunch of basics like scale/chord construction, pentatonic/diatonic scales, 2 pentatonic lead patterns, and other basics but I have had a total disconnect on how to use it all. My teacher has somewhat avoided taking about theory.

Am I understanding better what you are saying? If so, then I wonder if there is a resource somewhere that will help walk me through how to apply it?

Thanks.
 
Thank you so much for the detailed response!

I see what you are talking about on the "cadence" you described to build the I ii iii IV V vi vii chords in the the chord scale.... So if I am understanding it here for a chord you have the base note of the scale and then there is the minor 3rd (3 semitones) or major 3rd (4 semitones) and finally the perfect fifth (7 semitones). So then the idea is to not try to "map" them out on the fretboard but to get to "know" all the fretboard notes and the intervals between them and finally to be able to utilize those intervals in a creative way to produce the sounds/progressions you are trying to achieve? Gee, I feel like I have had a disconnect the whole time I've been trying to learn how to play. Over the last couple of years my guitar teacher has had me learn a bunch of basics like scale/chord construction, pentatonic/diatonic scales, 2 pentatonic lead patterns, and other basics but I have had a total disconnect on how to use it all. My teacher has somewhat avoided taking about theory.

Am I understanding better what you are saying? If so, then I wonder if there is a resource somewhere that will help walk me through how to apply it?

Thanks.
I THINK you got it ;)
And yeah…a lot of teachers…and 99% of the internet teaches guitar based on shapes…cause it’s low hanging fruit..and it sells easy.
But mind you…all other instrument teaching starts with the musical workings.

Basically it’s standard music theory…and you need to find a way to translate that to your instrument…so it can become a bridge between your musical ideas/ear..and your fingers.

Find your own exercises…play a scale all over the neck,,play a scale on one string..on 2 strings, play the arpeggio of the II chord in every position, toggle between the arpeggio of the II and the I cause that happens to me in a tune you like.
Approach chord notes from a scale note above, approach chromaticly from beneath. Play games with the knowledge of how scales and chords are constructed…and do it in small bites.

The theory is not the hard part..find ways that are fun to explore it on your instruments…it’s a game intended to sound good ;)
 
Thank you so much for the detailed response!

I see what you are talking about on the "cadence" you described to build the I ii iii IV V vi vii chords in the the chord scale.... So if I am understanding it here for a chord you have the base note of the scale and then there is the minor 3rd (3 semitones) or major 3rd (4 semitones) and finally the perfect fifth (7 semitones). So then the idea is to not try to "map" them out on the fretboard but to get to "know" all the fretboard notes and the intervals between them and finally to be able to utilize those intervals in a creative way to produce the sounds/progressions you are trying to achieve? Gee, I feel like I have had a disconnect the whole time I've been trying to learn how to play. Over the last couple of years my guitar teacher has had me learn a bunch of basics like scale/chord construction, pentatonic/diatonic scales, 2 pentatonic lead patterns, and other basics but I have had a total disconnect on how to use it all. My teacher has somewhat avoided taking about theory.

Am I understanding better what you are saying? If so, then I wonder if there is a resource somewhere that will help walk me through how to apply it?

Thanks.
Sounds like you've made the connection!

Next add the 4th chord tone to derive all the 7th chords.

You can continue on to 9ths, 11ths, 13ths when you feel adventurous.

All of these chords are created by "stacking" 3rds from the given scale.

1 3 5
1 3 5 7
1 3 5 7 9
Etc

Of course you'll run out of fingers ;)
 
The thing that I have seen most teachers struggle with is finding a way to get you from learning the theory to actually using it on the fretboard. I had a pretty good teacher and he struggled with this. I went to another pretty good teacher and he also struggled with it. I had to work through it on my own, which both of them kind of said to me. It took some work for me to get there. Once I started getting it I could pretty easily see where they could have coached me through it and got me there a lot faster. I went on a bit of a mission after that to start teaching and taking on people as students that were struggling with this same thing. I had to teach some of them more theory to fill in holes in their learning and then work them through actually being able to use what they either just learned or something they have known for a while but couldn't figure out how to use. It was a pretty satisfying thing to teach the people I taught. It was great to see people connect the dots and watch their playing take off. I heard many times that nobody had been able to get them to actually using this knowledge until they started spending time with me. Figuring out how to get the rubber to meet the road can be a long drawn out process for sure. It was for me.
 
The thing that I have seen most teachers struggle with is finding a way to get you from learning the theory to actually using it on the fretboard. I had a pretty good teacher and he struggled with this. I went to another pretty good teacher and he also struggled with it. I had to work through it on my own, which both of them kind of said to me. It took some work for me to get there. Once I started getting it I could pretty easily see where they could have coached me through it and got me there a lot faster. I went on a bit of a mission after that to start teaching and taking on people as students that were struggling with this same thing. I had to teach some of them more theory to fill in holes in their learning and then work them through actually being able to use what they either just learned or something they have known for a while but couldn't figure out how to use. It was a pretty satisfying thing to teach the people I taught. It was great to see people connect the dots and watch their playing take off. I heard many times that nobody had been able to get them to actually using this knowledge until they started spending time with me. Figuring out how to get the rubber to meet the road can be a long drawn out process for sure. It was for me.
Jason. With the said, have you run across any YouTube publishers who you think have shown the ability to relate the theory to application and convey it to their audience? If so, I'd like to check them out.
 
Sounds like you've made the connection!

Next add the 4th chord tone to derive all the 7th chords.

You can continue on to 9ths, 11ths, 13ths when you feel adventurous.

All of these chords are created by "stacking" 3rds from the given scale.

1 3 5
1 3 5 7
1 3 5 7 9
Etc

Of course you'll run out of fingers ;)
Yes, thanks! May take me a while to get there from here. Have to get the regular chord notes down first.
 
Jason. With the said, have you run across any YouTube publishers who you think have shown the ability to relate the theory to application and convey it to their audience? If so, I'd like to check them out.
Unfortunately, no. I still think this is a hang up that many players experience and it causes many to just not play because they work at learning but still are not making music with the knowledge. I like to continue my studies just to keep things sharper in my mind and try to keep expanding my playing. I have spent a fair amount of money on some of the bigger sites and still see a lot of information being presented but not really getting into application. I have been thinking about contacting one of the guys that I thing would be a good person to teach this and see what he says. He has a couple of courses on his site that I haven't really dug into that may have some of it in them. There is also another guy that has been promoting his courses that I really like his playing and am curious about his stuff but his prices are pretty high. I have been wrestling with whether to invest in them or not. I am afraid that they are just going to be covering things I already know.
 
Unfortunately, no. I still think this is a hang up that many players experience and it causes many to just not play because they work at learning but still are not making music with the knowledge. I like to continue my studies just to keep things sharper in my mind and try to keep expanding my playing. I have spent a fair amount of money on some of the bigger sites and still see a lot of information being presented but not really getting into application. I have been thinking about contacting one of the guys that I thing would be a good person to teach this and see what he says. He has a couple of courses on his site that I haven't really dug into that may have some of it in them. There is also another guy that has been promoting his courses that I really like his playing and am curious about his stuff but his prices are pretty high. I have been wrestling with whether to invest in them or not. I am afraid that they are just going to be covering things I already know.
Thanks for the reply Jason.
 
Most people think theory in C and convert it to start with.
Learn the caged shapes for that major scale and the pentatonic. So you can easily move them around.
Learn all the notes on the fingerboard.
Get that solid and automatic first.
Then learn intervals chord spelling and triads
(By now you’ll be past a lot of players)
Then subscribe to Dani’s channel
And systematically go through his applied music theory,harmony and rhythm videos.
 
Tbh…I’d be carefull using paper and visualizations, you are at risk of loosing the connection to musical properties. Play a scale based on your knowledge of its structure, not based on memorizing a shape.

Fwiw, I think visual memorization is fine - but having it on paper IMO isn't.
I think paper (or a screen for the matter) is useful to look at some basic structures, but where to go from there should be done just on the instrument.
For instance, it might be a good idea to lay out a typical major triad in root position on whatever visual medium. Like this (A major triad on D, G and B strings):

x
5
6
7
x
x

Now, this may need a little explanation of the included notes. Maybe like this:

x
5 - 5th
6 - major 3rd
7 - root
x
x

From there on, it's easy to go pretty much anywhere by yourself in case you know some theory and "musical mechanics". And it's really not much that you need. One basic thing might be something like "major 3rd for major chords, minor 3rd for minor chords". So, where's that major 3rd in the diagram above? Right, 6th fret, G string. How do we turn it into a minor 3rd? Right, by lowering it a semitone.
So, what will you end up with? It's this (and I'm only posting the diagram for demonstration purposes, as said above, this should happen in your head and on your fretboard only):

x
5
5
7
x
x

Now let's do all three close position major triad inversions on the same set of strings. Again, posting diagrams won't make you internalize it, so what we need is an explanation of inversions. Basically, for now, the rule is "move the lowest note up one octave". So to get from our root position A major triad A-C#-E to the first inversion, we'd have to play C#-E-A. Where do we find those notes in that very order on the D, G and B strings? And once we found them, what would we have to do to create another minor version? And what would the second inversion look like? 2nd inversion in minor?
And now - wohoo - what if we did all the same stuff for a D major triad? And then, what if we came up with a rule to move from any A major triad to any D major triad using the least possible movement (still using the same set of strings)?
Also: How does all this transfer to different sets of strings (this is where the guitar really gets very nasty as there's the dreaded B string only a major 3rd apart from the G string)?
And what if we now tried to harmonize an entire major scale just using those triads? And can you alread guess which notes to alter in a major triad to arrive at a diminished triad (because that's what we'd need to harmonize the 7th degree of a major scale)?

All of this should easily be doable given the very little graphic representations above. But you have to explore it yourself - which, IMO without any question, is *the* most efficient way to get it into your system, even if it hurts a little bit more when you start.

The very same concept also applies to thirds, sixths, other intervals, other chord types/shapes, scales and what not.
Doing it yourself instead of relying on a paper will a) make you find out and memorize, b) make you listen, not watch.


Learn all the notes on the fingerboard.

How exactly? Like stare at them and learn them? Seriously, this is such an overused term - and it's hardly ever backed up with any useful "how to"s. So, how?
 
There are tools to learn the fingerboard that work and you start with that and pretty quickly you get it down.

This works and it’s basically what I did.
 
And fwiw, *the* most important thing is: Play! Play everything you just encountered. Don't waste your time staring at diagrams. Also don't waste your time learning things that will come naturally when you play anyway.
And well, terribly sorry to disagree with TJontheRoad: No, learning the notes on the fretboard is no good idea. Learn how notes are sorted chromatically: C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, Bb, B. That way it. The rest will come when you try to figure out things.
Typical fretboard position markers will quickly help you to navigate along - and you may even know some from tuning already. 5th fret on E6 is an A. 5th fret on A5 is a D. 12th fret are all your octaves (so it starts repeating upwards from there).
The rest is learning by doing rather than learning by staring or learning by writing.
 
There are tools to learn the fingerboard that work and you start with that and pretty quickly you get it down.

This works and it’s basically what I did.


I don't agree with him here for the most part (and I usually like his channel).
 
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