Question about Intervals

[Eagle]

Caged is predicted on five shapes to match the five open major chords and cover one octave.

 

[PLX]

The shapes of the major scale stay the same, regardless of what mode you're in.

 

[Sascha Franck]

One two octave shape for whatever mode of whatever scale I’m using

That's making no sense on any theoretical level. If you feel like organizing it that way, do so. But it's still not making sense when explaining things.
G dorian is the notes of the F major scale played in a G minor context, and that's it.
As a result, you can use any F major fingering pattern anywhere on the neck for G dorian, regardless of what fingering pattern approach you're using, be it in position, 3NPS, 4NPS, up and down a single string or whatsoever. Modes are not defined by fingering patterns at all.

 

[Aelred]

I started by overlaying the notes of the C Major scale on the fretboard and then using intervals of 3rds I mapped out the 1st and 2nd strings. Interestingly the note pairs match the 1 and 3 notes of the chord triads shown in the C Major Chord scale (I inserted the associated Chord at the bottom at the centerline between the notes and also noted the 1,3,5 notes of the triad.

FWIW, I like that approach even if it is not approved by experts.

Learn the C major scale on those two strings as you mapped out very nicely. I would then learn the C minor scale on those 2 strings. Add strings when and as you feel good to do so. By learning C major, you also get A minor "for free" etc. Put a C7 chord into a looper and play C major and minor over it.

Baby steps are oft forgot by those well advanced, and those steps done many years ago, imho anyway.

 

[Eagle]

That's making no sense on any theoretical level. If you feel like organizing it that way, do so. But it's still not making sense when explaining things.
G dorian is the notes of the F major scale played in a G minor context, and that's it.
As a result, you can use any F major fingering pattern anywhere on the neck for G dorian, regardless of what fingering pattern approach you're using, be it in position, 3NPS, 4NPS, up and down a single string or whatsoever. Modes are not defined by fingering patterns at all.

It was about improvisation in practice more than the theory. If you have to think about it while playing it’s not going to be fluid.
It gives me instant recall of whatever scale I want to use over any inversion anywhere on the neck and the intervals relative to it without having to think. Caged to see the inversion and the rest is automatic.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It was about improvisation in practice more than the theory. If you have to think about it while playing it’s not going to be fluid.

This is about learning things. When you improvise, you should obviously not think about scale shapes. But what you said makes no sense as an educational instruction layout.

It gives me instant recall of whatever scale I want to use over any inversion anywhere on the neck and the intervals relative to it without having to think.

Pretty much any scale approach should do that.

 

[unix-guy]

Right, so if you learn the E minor scale, you pretty much have G major.

Yes - E minor is relative minor to G major.

If you have G minor, you pretty much have E major.

Totally not... G minor is the relative minor of Bb major.

Or is this totally wrong?

50%

 

[Aelred]

Totally not... G minor is the relative minor of Bb major.

Thank you! I've been wondering why Em and Gmaj work, but got that muddled badly.

I haven't been going to Gmin yet, focusing on Gmaj. The A/C thing worked so nicely for me...and now I realize A major is relative to F#min... explains a lot of my confusion. Us beginners be easily befuddled.

Thanks again!

 

[Eagle]

This is about learning things. When you improvise, you should obviously not think about scale shapes. But what you said makes no sense as an educational instruction layout.



Pretty much any scale approach should do that.

Using a different shape that starts on each scale degree is pretty common. Frank Gambale comes to mind., he does this . Guthrie Govern also.
It originally made sense because I use economy picking and it makes everything the same .

 

[Sascha Franck]

Using a different shape that starts on each scale degree is pretty common.

Err, of course. It's called "using the entire neck". Each and every decent player does that.
But it's got zero to do with modes, CAGED, 3nps or whatsoever. Technically, modes are exactly the same as major scales (or other heptatonic scales) and the latter two are just helpers to get you there.

 

[Eagle]

Err, of course. It's called "using the entire neck". Each and every decent player does that.
But it's got zero to do with modes, CAGED, 3nps or whatsoever. Technically, modes are exactly the same as major scales (or other heptatonic scales) and the latter two are just helpers to get you there.

Which is exactly what said and do. All scales are relative to their context so not thinking of modes as anything other than their parent scale is not helpful in using them properly. Good for learning the shapes but not the sounds.
A good foundation in the shapes needed to cover the major scales over the entire neck is the best starting point. For a lot of people assigning one shape to each mode makes perfect sense and so many world class players do this.

 

[Eagle]

Many players lock the tonality of their modes to the one or two positions that they commonly use.
It’s important to hear the modality to not drag it to the sound of one of the other modes unless that is your intention. The number of times you hear the intervals played to the context chord is surprisingly low. Even AH played most things in a relative minor regardless. AH was unusual in that he would not consider any available scale tone an avoid note regardless of how challenging for the listener.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For a lot of people assigning one shape to each mode makes perfect sense and so many world class players do this.

That is just nonsense (and even counterproductive). G major over an A minor chord results in a dorian character, completely regardless of the shape of your G major scale.

 

[Eagle]

That is just nonsense (and even counterproductive). G major over an A minor chord results in a dorian character, completely regardless of the shape of your G major scale.

As usual you choose to not engage with the point.
The function of the notes is relative to the context not the shape but most players are still using the intervals as functions of the shape. Most players find it useful to think from a shape that is relative to the 1 of the chord . I don’t know anyone who thinks in the notes while playing even Guthrie does a version of what I do and he’s the best improvisor I know. Thinking in interval function relative to the 1 of the chord is the most direct way to do it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but most players are still using the intervals as functions of the shape.

You will need to explain this as it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Most players find it useful to think from a shape that is relative to the 1 of the chord

Who are these "most" players you are talking about?

I don’t know anyone who thinks in the notes while playing even Guthrie does a version of what I do and he’s the best improvisor I know.

That has nothing to do with what you previously said.

Thinking in interval function relative to the 1 of the chord is the most direct way to do it.

Yes, but it doesn't relate to any certain fingerboard shaping pattern at all. An Eb is the b7 for an F chord, regardless of where I'm playing it on the neck. And I don't need to look for whatever Fs or "F shapes" to find it.

You seem to fixate on whatever shapes related to whatever musical context. That's counterproductive.

 

[duzie]

Hey guys I know threads go off the rails but…
This started out as a question by beginners and now WTF

 

[Sascha Franck]

Hey guys I know threads go off the rails but…
This started out as a question by beginners and now WTF

I actually don't feel guilty as charged, simply because there's so much mal-information spread, it needs to be busted. Otherwise the OP will be even more confused.

 

[Eagle]

Same .
You need to develop a way of handling this information in a way that you can instantly translate to your playing. If you use Dani’s videos you will be in good company.

 

[Eagle]

You will need to explain this as it makes absolutely no sense to me.



Who are these "most" players you are talking about?



That has nothing to do with what you previously said.



Yes, but it doesn't relate to any certain fingerboard shaping pattern at all. An Eb is the b7 for an F chord, regardless of where I'm playing it on the neck. And I don't need to look for whatever Fs or "F shapes" to find it.

You seem to fixate on whatever shapes related to whatever musical context. That's counterproductive.

This is all perfectly clear. It’s also far easier to understand in theory than use it in your playing. This is why you need methods to get it in to your hands and the ones I have discussed are common in all improvisational players I have ever discussed it with. This is a lot over the years. Connecting caged ,shapes ,patterns 3nps 2nps to your theory is necessary and assigning practical methods directly to concepts is helpful to everyone except you apparently.
You could just say learn all the notes on your instrument and all the theory and that not exactly going to be helpful even if basically true.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Connecting caged ,shapes ,patterns 3nps 2nps to your theory is necessary and assigning practical methods directly to concepts is helpful to everyone except you apparently.

Nobody ever said anything else. It was just you telling me that one should associate a shape with a mode. Which is like yesteryears methodology. If at all.