New to Modeling and Want to Dip my Toe in the Water
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That isn't at all how it works.
Capturing/profiling creates a system response. In math terms, it builds a Laplace transform of the system response of the amp and cab (look up signal and system processing if you want to really get your head in a bind, then think of the Kemper as building the function H(s)).
As I said, all of these "capture/profile" amps ALSO include a modeling SECTION that allows modification of the captured system response.
Liquid profiling (the latest enhancement to the MODELING section of the Kemper) attempts to make the controls on the Kemper mirror the controls and behavior of those controls from the original amp. Exe, if the amp had only a low and high eq knob, then the Liquid profile would only have those 2 controls. These controls would be modeled to have the same eq effect as the original amp did for those controls. The original Kemper profiles ALL had a 4 band eq that always behaved the same way on every profile. Some long-time Kemper users prefer using the standard controls from the Kemper on all profiles while others want their profiles to have the same controls as the original amp. Note: Since every amp has different behavior of the controls, this means that it is more difficult to get a handle on exactly what tweaking a specific knob is going to do to the sound (unless you are very familiar with that specific amp and how it behaves.
FWIW, I have never heard anyone that has played on both a Kemper and a Helix say they preferred the sound of the Helix. The general consensus between the top end Fractal and Kemper is that they both can create a very convincing tube tone with Fractal being able to do more with the EFX chain than Kemper and Kemper having slightly better raw tube tone.
Helix is a good value though and does quite a lot very well, it just falls short of the more expensive Fractal and Kemper.
My opinion is that a used Kemper Stage is as good a deal as can be found for live gigging, bar none.
Boudoir Guitar
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The only people I've heard that think you can just compare the sound of Kemper to the sound of Helix are people that are just not objective.
The Kemper can get sounds not available in the Helix. The Helix can get sounds not available from the Kemper. Both CAN sound pretty similar to one another. Both are great devices and can sound fantastic. Anyone that can't get good sounds out of a Helix either (1) hasn't spent much time with it or (2) is a moron and should just stick to gear where you load up an amp block somebody else created for them. One might still prefer the Kemper, but anybody that is STILL slagging on the Helix as inferior tonally -- honestly, for me, that's just a mental note of "this person's opinion is highly suspect".
The Kemper CAN sound incredible. The Kemper can also sound like utter garbage. The challenge here is the patience you have trying to find profiles that sound incredible. For me, if I was turning the cab modeling off, there were a lot of profiles that sounded great. If I was keeping cab modeling on...it was a longer, more tedious process. This applies to my experience with ToneX software, too.
The Helix CAN sound incredible. It can also sound like utter garbage. For me, the challenge here is ignoring the bits that I don't need to worry about and avoiding the internet's tendency to solve problems in dumb ways -- "Make sure you have Pad ON, input impedance set to X, put a compressor at the end of the chain to glue everything together and blah blah, and pure magic." While each user MAY have One Secret Trick to getting themselves to the happiest place, the bigger key is (1) zeroing in on a handful of amps that seem to be close to the feel, headroom, distortion characteristics you are shooting for and (2) getting to know either the cab block, or the IRs, that can then get you the frequency response you are looking for.
In terms of "modelers are for tweakers; Kempers are for the morally superior giggers" -- such utter nonsense. Loads of folks around hear with a folder on their computer with THOUSANDS of Kemper profiles that they have messed around with endlessly. The bigger differentiator between tweaker and non-tweaker is . . . those with 1,000+ posts on a gear forum are likely to be the kind of folks that like to tweak/play with a lot of gear, where those with sub-500, all within threads about one very narrow topic...know a lot about one very narrow topic.
Signed: verified Fractal Fanboi
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Achilles
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Pretty much applies to the entire lot of them!
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I don't have the energy today, but one thousand percent all of this.
Boudoir Guitar
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There are some where I'd take the "incredible" adjective down a level or two, but pretty much.
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I raise you 100%.
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technically it maybe 2000% but i'm tired and could be totally wrong.So that's like......
100,000%
Boudoir Guitar
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My math says 2000% or 1100%, because the statement was slightly ambiguous as to whether you were raising him 100% of the original amount, or of his raise.technically it maybe 2000% but i'm tired and could be totally wrong.
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Since only the profiler/capture device is attempting to recreate a specific amp, a Modeler, by definition, can not be compared directly to the sound of the amp it is attempting to recreate and therefore muddies the water for what "sounds better" having eliminated the ability to simply say "sounds exactly like" and utilize the base sound as the original tube amp itself.
Opinions of what "sounds better" are prolific in the extreme. Attempting to determine which person's "sounds better" will match your own is therefore impossible.
Statistically (based on my own reading of thousands of posts all over the internet and among my own group of friends that gig with various rigs), guitarist that value the sound of a good tube amp with minimal lathering of effects on it gravitate to profilers/capture devices. The Kemper is currently the best profiler/capture device on the market with respect to gigging features and workflow using the same statistical process.
Then you think that quite a few people with pretty impressive guitar playing credentials are not objective. Find me a review where Fractal, Kemper, the original tube amp, and helix are compared where the Helix was the preferred sound. I would be interested in hearing this.
I contend that MOST guitarist that gig, are NOT tweakers. They (as a statistical group) are interested in characteristics of traditional tube amps with respect to the ability to cut through the mix and sit in the mix nicely playing live. They are interested in pedalboard visibility, workflow, and usability including ergonomics, spill-over, and patch switching times as well as workflow enhancing features for a live performance.
Tweakers, on the other hand generally could care less what kind of foot controller the guitar processor has since they will (NEARLY ALWAYS) be using a PC to manipulate the plethora of settings and routings that the device offers. They are (statistically speaking) most interested in what kinds of sounds they can get and delight in creativity of new and original ways of processing a guitar that result in original sounds while being only mildly interested in re-creating the sound of a traditional raw tube amp tone.
It is not unreasonable to expect that a profiler with a good live pedalboard workflow would be preferred by a live musician while a great PC editor and superior flexibility of a modeler would be preferred by a tweaker.
Before everyone here gets their panties all in a bunch, I have seen the Helix used well in a live gig on more than one occasion. That still doesn't make it a superior tool to the Kemper for live use. It only means that you CAN achieve a good live result with it.
FYI, pay careful attention to what the OP said. See where he is coming from and think about what features would be most useful to him and be easiest to use. He isn't asking what your favorite modeler/profiler is. He is asking which one would best fit his needs.
Opinions of what "sounds better" are prolific in the extreme. Attempting to determine which person's "sounds better" will match your own is therefore impossible.
Statistically (based on my own reading of thousands of posts all over the internet and among my own group of friends that gig with various rigs), guitarist that value the sound of a good tube amp with minimal lathering of effects on it gravitate to profilers/capture devices. The Kemper is currently the best profiler/capture device on the market with respect to gigging features and workflow using the same statistical process.
Then you think that quite a few people with pretty impressive guitar playing credentials are not objective. Find me a review where Fractal, Kemper, the original tube amp, and helix are compared where the Helix was the preferred sound. I would be interested in hearing this.
While both can be made to sound good (at least to my ear), it is easier for a person used to dealing with a tube amp and pedals to get the Kemper into the desired "tone" than the Helix (or Fractal for that matter). I know many people that would argue that the Helix in particular is simply not capable of reaching the same raw tube amp tone as either Fractal or Kemper. It is only when you bring the Helix considerable processing and efx capabilities to bear that a "good" sound is achieved (even by your own example). Many would argue that this "good" sound, while still a "good" sound is not the sound and behavior of a real tube amp.... but is still good.
Never said or even eluded to such an utterly absurd statement.
I contend that MOST guitarist that gig, are NOT tweakers. They (as a statistical group) are interested in characteristics of traditional tube amps with respect to the ability to cut through the mix and sit in the mix nicely playing live. They are interested in pedalboard visibility, workflow, and usability including ergonomics, spill-over, and patch switching times as well as workflow enhancing features for a live performance.
Tweakers, on the other hand generally could care less what kind of foot controller the guitar processor has since they will (NEARLY ALWAYS) be using a PC to manipulate the plethora of settings and routings that the device offers. They are (statistically speaking) most interested in what kinds of sounds they can get and delight in creativity of new and original ways of processing a guitar that result in original sounds while being only mildly interested in re-creating the sound of a traditional raw tube amp tone.
It is not unreasonable to expect that a profiler with a good live pedalboard workflow would be preferred by a live musician while a great PC editor and superior flexibility of a modeler would be preferred by a tweaker.
Before everyone here gets their panties all in a bunch, I have seen the Helix used well in a live gig on more than one occasion. That still doesn't make it a superior tool to the Kemper for live use. It only means that you CAN achieve a good live result with it.
FYI, pay careful attention to what the OP said. See where he is coming from and think about what features would be most useful to him and be easiest to use. He isn't asking what your favorite modeler/profiler is. He is asking which one would best fit his needs.
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At least post using your historical username.
Boudoir Guitar
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(1) Of course loads of super amazing supercalfragilisticexpialidotious guitarists are not objective.
(2) I wanna see your excel spreadsheets on all these statistical significances you keep talking about
(3) There is nothing about the Kemper that makes it easier for straightforward amp/cab tones for all people used to working with tube amps. Honestly, for direct tones, I find it harder, because you have BOTH aspects of dialing in a tone perma-linked. So often I'd find a profile where the amp had the breakup and dynamic characteristics I was looking for but it was tied to a cab whose frequency response I really did not like. Others have a different experience. Because different people prefer working in different ways, as hard as that concept may be for you to understand.
(4) We paid careful attention to what the OP said, and the Kemper is at a minimum, 35% beyond his proposed budget.
Jarick
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@Boudoir Guitar absolutely nailed it.
Personally I think for the OP, looking to dip your toe into modeling, it’s not worth worrying about profiling vs modeling or whatever. In your budget there’s no profiler with effects. So realistically you’re looking at things like pod go, hx stomp, boss gx100, headrush, etc.
Profilers are best for people that either have their own amps and cabs they want to capture or for people who don’t mind digging through profiles to find the best sound.
Modelers on the other hand don’t require external profiles, so may be easier to manage all in the box.
I think the biggest key is getting your monitoring dialed in. If you are using crappy speakers in a bad room, almost everything will sound bad. If you use good speakers in a treated room, almost everything will sound good.
Personally I think for the OP, looking to dip your toe into modeling, it’s not worth worrying about profiling vs modeling or whatever. In your budget there’s no profiler with effects. So realistically you’re looking at things like pod go, hx stomp, boss gx100, headrush, etc.
Profilers are best for people that either have their own amps and cabs they want to capture or for people who don’t mind digging through profiles to find the best sound.
Modelers on the other hand don’t require external profiles, so may be easier to manage all in the box.
I think the biggest key is getting your monitoring dialed in. If you are using crappy speakers in a bad room, almost everything will sound bad. If you use good speakers in a treated room, almost everything will sound good.
There are ways around that…I’ve always used Kemper with the cabsection locked….running DI profiles.
Bit atypical probably
Simular with the QC…I made my presets into real speakers…and choose a cab as icing on the cake. Else I probably end up in frustration cause my sounds are all over the place cause of different cabs. More and more I’m looking at “diversity” to be rather a curse then a blessing.
Boudoir Guitar
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Yeah, similar to my experience with just turning the cab block off in Kemper and running straight into cab.There are ways around that…I’ve always used Kemper with the cabsection locked….running DI profiles.
Bit atypical probably
Simular with the QC…I made my presets into real speakers…and choose a cab as icing on the cake. Else I probably end up in frustration cause my sounds are all over the place cause of different cabs. More and more I’m looking at “diversity” to be rather a curse then a blessing.
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In my mind it’s pretty simular to a modeler…if you know what you want, and good is good enough…you’re done fast. Else…you will be hunting profiles…or scrolling amps and tweak a model..it’s the same hunt for an undetermined goal, caused by fear you don’t use “the best”.
came the rain
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Which is a model nonetheless—although one very limited in scope. Hence the term snapshot. Based off frequency analysis. Not to be confused with component modeling.
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