New to Modeling and Want to Dip my Toe in the Water

[maguchi]

pod no and Head flush

?

 

[OneEng]

1. Budget $500-$750
2. Live only, for recording will use presets built into DAW
3. Both P.A. speakers and guitar amps
4. Not really a lot, just basics like delay, reverb, chorus, phaser, auto-wah and tremelo
5. Not at first maybe after using it awhile

Great information.

What I would recommend a Kemper Stage Used (~ $1100) as my first choice.

1. Hands down the best real tube tone for the types of amps you are used to
2. Has independent outputs for the PA and for your monitor
3. Great gigging capabilities all around for a pelthora of reasons
4. VERY easy for a traditional tube amp player to understand quickly

Additionally, if you don't like it, you can very likely sell it at or near the price you paid for it.

Honestly, for live gigging (which is what I do too) there isn't anything out there that is better IMO. I have tried them all.

Here are my counter thoughts to all other recommendations:

• Why not the new Kemper Player? At $750.00 new, it is nearly at the price of a used Kemper Stage which has way more capability. The player doesn't have enough buttons to be a good gigging partner.
• Why not a Fractal FM3 or FM9? While it is absolutely possible to get great low gain sounds out of these products, it isn't easy for an old tube player to get there. Additionally, the FM3 is again, just too few buttons to be a decent gig partner. Also, they are a fairly expensive solution in comparison.
• Why not Helix HX Stomp XL? Delay time between patches makes this solution unacceptable for live IMO. Yes, you can avoid the delay by simply making a bigger patch and taking parts in and out of it; however, you need to know how to do this (it isn't that simple), you are limited in processing on this platform which makes it even harder, and the Helix doesn't have the same sound quality for the amps you are used to as the Kemper or Fractal units.
• Why not the quad cortex? First and foremost, the buttons are TOO CLOSE TOGETHER for gigging. It isn't as good a solution for live as the Kemper stage either. It is also not an easy unit to learn IMO.

Be careful of the different recommendations given as some people like to gig (like you and I), some people like to plunk around in the basement and control things with their fingers, and some like to record. Additionally, there seems to be a good percentage of people using modeling/capture units who highly prioritize lots of effect processing over raw tube tone.

The Kemper is also built like a tank and was obviously designed for nightly gigging.

 

[maguchi]

Great information.

What I would recommend a Kemper Stage Used (~ $1100) as my first choice.

1. Hands down the best real tube tone for the types of amps you are used to
2. Has independent outputs for the PA and for your monitor
3. Great gigging capabilities all around for a pelthora of reasons
4. VERY easy for a traditional tube amp player to understand quickly

Additionally, if you don't like it, you can very likely sell it at or near the price you paid for it.

Honestly, for live gigging (which is what I do too) there isn't anything out there that is better IMO. I have tried them all.

Here are my counter thoughts to all other recommendations:

• Why not the new Kemper Player? At $750.00 new, it is nearly at the price of a used Kemper Stage which has way more capability. The player doesn't have enough buttons to be a good gigging partner.
• Why not a Fractal FM3 or FM9? While it is absolutely possible to get great low gain sounds out of these products, it isn't easy for an old tube player to get there. Additionally, the FM3 is again, just too few buttons to be a decent gig partner. Also, they are a fairly expensive solution in comparison.
• Why not Helix HX Stomp XL? Delay time between patches makes this solution unacceptable for live IMO. Yes, you can avoid the delay by simply making a bigger patch and taking parts in and out of it; however, you need to know how to do this (it isn't that simple), you are limited in processing on this platform which makes it even harder, and the Helix doesn't have the same sound quality for the amps you are used to as the Kemper or Fractal units.
• Why not the quad cortex? First and foremost, the buttons are TOO CLOSE TOGETHER for gigging. It isn't as good a solution for live as the Kemper stage either. It is also not an easy unit to learn IMO.

Be careful of the different recommendations given as some people like to gig (like you and I), some people like to plunk around in the basement and control things with their fingers, and some like to record. Additionally, there seems to be a good percentage of people using modeling/capture units who highly prioritize lots of effect processing over raw tube tone.

The Kemper is also built like a tank and was obviously designed for nightly gigging.

Thanks this is really helpful. In searching for Kempers, I saw that Kempers were called "profilers", and other brands were called "modelers". What are the major differences between profilers and modelers? Can a modeler do most of what a profiler can, and vice versa? A short synopsis is fine as I probly don't have the experience to understand a complex in depth explanation.
Cheers,
Magoo

 

[la szum]

 

[Mongillo19]

Thanks this is really helpful. In searching for Kempers, I saw that Kempers were called "profilers", and other brands were called "modelers". What are the major differences between profilers and modelers? Can a modeler do most of what a profiler can, and vice versa? A short synopsis is fine as I probly don't have the experience to understand a complex in depth explanation.
Cheers,
Magoo

Kemper is a profiler. There isn't a profiler or modeler version of it.

In general, profile units mean they play static profiles of a particular amp (or amp and cab) at that one setting. You have the bass mid treble options but they are more like post EQ and don't react how the amp would react if you mess with the EQ (think of how amps like Mesa where increasing treble kinda increases gain)

Modelers model the amp and do their best to recreate every bit of it. The pro of a modeler is that you can edit the parameters and ideally they react like you were messing with the real amp

I prefer modelers because searching/paying for profiles can be a timesink....think of IRs on steroids lol

 

[came the rain]

1. Budget $500-$750
2. Live only, for recording will use presets built into DAW

What I would recommend a Kemper Stage Used (~ $1100) as my first choice.

Be careful of the different recommendations given as some people like to gig (like you and I), some people like to plunk around in the basement and control things with their fingers, and some like to record.

Note #1. Budget.

 

[three_eyed_otter]

It's so weird how there are numerous demonstrations of the original POD variations, defeating the Cab, & adding a modern IR & it sounds great, but the PODGO is often viewed as some inferior modeler...It definitely has limitations, but it has the HX/HELIX cab update & most of the amps as well. It fits the budget & will deliver the immediacy of the modeler experience.

Have a good one,

3EO

 

[ragingplatypi]

Let us know what you wind up choosing. It’s nice to have sites like this to use as a reference/support to get up and running. A lot of questions you might have may have already been addressed here or at TGP.

 

[Moe45673]

Again, I reiterate: Boss me-90.

The Line 6 Pod Go I found to be great. Bu way too many choices; so many models of so many amp's and pedals, all with different names, pedals, and buttons/knobs/switches/etc. All of them don't even work the same; sometimes bias-x on an amp would increase the dynamics, and sometimes it would smooth it out like a compressor. Or dirt pedals like the teemah, it literally has one option that's a switch ( like a pickup selector on a strat) and the options to set it are "top, middle, bottom". FWIW, this models the gen3 Timmy which had that switch, but L6 documentation won't tell you that. Elbow grease will. It will also tell you what "top/middle/bottom" settings do for the switch.

So as a modeller, the pod go is not that hard to setup a signal chain. But I was spending ridiculous amounts of time figuring out what certain amp's and pedals do. Oh, and also the legacy effects - I don't know what a chandler tubedriver sounds like, and I don't know the quirks of the Helix vs legacy model of it. That's fine for one pedal, but here a ton of them

Boss, OTOH, they're like "tubescreamer, rat, muff, our overdrive, our better overdrive". And all of them have the same knobs that do the same thing to each effect. Sweet. For example, I own a Rat2 so I know the filter knob works backwards from the regular "tone" knob. But I don't need it to on my modeller, and Boss doesn't model the behavior of the knob "accurately";they model it consistently with the other models. Yes please

 

[MindCrime]

It's so weird how there are numerous demonstrations of the original POD variations, defeating the Cab, & adding a modern IR & it sounds great, but the PODGO is often viewed as some inferior modeler...It definitely has limitations, but it has the HX/HELIX cab update & most of the amps as well. It fits the budget & will deliver the immediacy of the modeler experience.

Have a good one,

3EO

I TOTALLY agree with @3EO . I have & use a L6 PG. I also have an HX Stomp & a Helix LT. But the PG is small, light and really sounds good.
I have read stories about guys gigging with a PG for a few years and it delivered !

The YT videos that convinced me in the first place were videos by John Cordy, Paul Hindmarsh (with L6) and Richie Castellano (with
Blue Oyster Cult).
These were the players that convinced me the PG was worth a look !

So many people dismiss/reject the PG. Either they never owned one OR they just couldn't get it dialed in. So...they wrote it off.

@maguchi - For your budget...take a close look at the L6 PodGo.

 

[Jarick]

I think that's where you'll need to start digging in and possibly trying stuff in stores or pick up and bring home.

I personally didn't like the sound of the Boss modeling. I had the GT-1000 and couldn't get it to work for me. Same with the Boss Katana...after the initial NGD excitement, didn't do anything for me.

While I haven't tried the Pod Go, I've got the HX Stomp and it sounds good without much tweaking, both amps and effects. The Pod Go seems like a streamlined version of the HX and gets really good praise. The HX Stomp XL would give you more buttons too but the Pod Go has the bigger screen and seems more like a grab and go all in one unit.

 

[came the rain]

Facts are the Helix, Helix LT, and both versions of the HX Stomp have superior upsampling to the POD Go. That’s not an opinion. There’s a reason Line 6 improved it when they could, Some people notice the difference.

Whether the upsampling improvement matters is in the realm of opinion….

 

[the-trooper]

Helix doesn't have the same sound quality for the amps you are used to as the Kemper or Fractal

Blind test has entered the chat

 

[OneEng]

Thanks this is really helpful. In searching for Kempers, I saw that Kempers were called "profilers", and other brands were called "modelers". What are the major differences between profilers and modelers? Can a modeler do most of what a profiler can, and vice versa? A short synopsis is fine as I probly don't have the experience to understand a complex in depth explanation.
Cheers,
Magoo

They both achieve a reproduction of what a real tube amp is doing, but they go about it differently.

A profiler (or capture), uses a microphone (one or more) and a test signal into the amp (Provide a known input, then measure the output of the speaker) to listen to how an amp behaves under different frequencies and at different volume level inputs. The profiler then knows how the amp behaves and duplicates this behavior when you play that patch with your own guitar.

A modeler attempts to match the behavior of the circuitry inside an amp with software simulations of what those circuits would do to the input signal.

They seem to be a world apart in approaches, but in fact all profilers/capture devices have models to modify the capture (the above post is incorrect that a profiler can only reproduce exactly the settings of the amp it was captured at). Some do it better or worse than others. The Kemper has been around quite some time, so it has gotten pretty good at capturing an amp, and providing controls to modify it after the fact as well. Older versions of the firmware did not allow as good of refinement of a profile/capture. This meant that you had to find someone that made a good capture of your VOX AC30 at or near the gain and eq that you wanted or it didn't work as well. This has been addressed and it works pretty slick now.

Modelers have the issue that they don't even attempt to "capture" an amp. They try to simulate what its circuit is doing. This leads to lots of "circuit" tweaking in the amp models to get a tone you want. They do "capture" the cab behavior though, so as you see, both approaches have elements of the other incorporated to get good results.

Kemper, Helix and Fractal all have very mature on-line libraries of canned sounds from different amps. Quad Cortex is much more limited as it is much newer.

At the end of the day, being an old tube amp guy myself (Fender HRD, VHT Ultralead, VOX AC30, Marshall JCM800), It is MUCH easier for me to setup the Kemper to achieve tones for cover songs than it is on a Fractal or Line 6 device. Furthermore, the foot controller for Kemper is very well thought out for live use as is the "Performance" mode that is expressly designed for gigs.

The Line 6 and Fractal approach both offer much more routing capabilities than the Kemper with regards to doing anything you want with as many effects as you can get your head around. They even offer using more than one amp model within a single rig (which Kemper can't do at all).

I rarely mess with my live setup. I have tones I use in general, and a few I use for specific songs (like U2 songs). Last night is the first time this year I have setup a new sound (Acoustic simulation for the intro for "Friends in Low Places"). Now that I have that acoustic sound, I will likely use it for any future acoustic song unless the tone is way off for that purpose.

It is my experience that people that love modelers LOVE to tweak. I love to gig . For me, having a replacement for my tube amp rig is all I really want .... just lighter and less complicated to setup. I never wanted to be able to create a sound that my old rig could not, I only wanted to have a gig rig that was light (11.5lbs), fast to setup, and could cover the sounds I got with my old tube amps and pedal board.

The previous poster is correct about browsing through the Kemper Rig manager though. You can spend days auditioning the different rigs others have produced and shared on their Kempers. That's pretty fun too, but I only do it when I am looking for a new tone I need to reproduce. I can generally find what I need in under 15 min and have it tweaked to my liking in under 30 min. It get saved in a performance (set of 5 rigs) that I will use for a certain set of songs and ..... done!

 

[came the rain]

The Kemper is actually a modeler underneath. There are set number of target models. A profile being one which is modified based on the profiling(which is a semi automated measurement system based on frequency analysis). Liquid profiling is a recent enhancement to include modeled tone stacks.

 

[Eagle]

Used Kemper is a great deal at the moment and way better sound than all the budget stuff.

 

[ragingplatypi]

Used Kemper is a great deal at the moment and way better sound than all the budget stuff.

And if wishes were horses we’d all ride.

 

[Eagle]

And if wishes were horses we’d all ride.

? Try English.

 

[norminal]

So I'm ready to try modeling.

I’d recommend a used HX Stomp or even Helix Native to dip your toes in.

 

[JCW308]

I’d recommend a used HX Stomp or even Helix Native to dip your toes in.

This. Next topic!