It’s not the modeler…it’s something else that determines the endresult.

[Sascha Franck]

Robert Fripp is *such* a most excellent dude. Everybody should hope to age like him and his lovely wife (their lockdown home sessions were just incredible).

 

[DrewJD82]

About five for me and yeah.. I've been a dishwasher a busboy a line cook a fry cook and a sous chef at a gourmet restaurant in those 5 years lol oh and a server at Olive garden for 3 months or so.

Bless your heart, child.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Bob as a server at Olive Garden. Anyone have tape of that?

"Go f**k yourselves!

It did end similar to that. I didn't tell a customer to GFY I told the Restaurant Manger to GFY. It was at the time when they switched over to shared tips for everyone. Meaning the lazy ones got just as much tips as the hard workers.

 

[DrewJD82]

Robert Fripp is *such* a most excellent dude. Everybody should hope to age like him and his lovely wife (their lockdown home sessions were just incredible).

While a lot of people used those lockdown sessions to bag on him and his wife, I thought it was one of the most endearing things I’d ever seen. That dude looks at her like I look at guitars. Not sure I’ll ever look at a woman like that again, but that doesn’t stop me from being stoked for those that do.

 

[Digital Igloo]

My first studio in late 90s Tucson was funded entirely from working in the food industry (tuxes, gueridons, silver domes, massive wine list). Rent was $200/mo. and the restaurant's hotel had free food in the cafeteria so literally 80% of my income went towards gear. Was young and naïve and had no idea how much coke my coworkers were doing. Turns out one was dealing out of the kitchen and used the restaurant gig as a front.

Took a 50% pay cut to work at Rainbow Guitars, but the discount on gear, SPIFF deals, and NFR software/sample libraries more than made up for it. Plus they sent me to my very first NAMM show.

 

[pipelineaudio]

My first studio in late 90s Tucson was funded entirely from working in the food industry (tuxes, gueridons, silver domes, massive wine list).

A fellow Arizonan??? Explains the excellence (even if it was The Republic of California part of the state)

 

[DrewJD82]

Was young and naïve and had no idea how much coke my coworkers were doing.

No one ever just does a little coke. The answer is ALWAYS “lots”.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Fwiw, try running a JCM 800 fullstack on a 4x4m Jazz Club stage. It won't sound like a JCM 800 fullstack, either. At least not for you (maybe, but really just maybe for the people that you've already scared to run outside).

Hence:

Actually done precisely that numerous times at the Baked Potato as hg Ave many of my peers and it works great. Even in that small 85 capacity room..

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

And clearly some portion of the population doesn't know the correct spelling of "sexist."

Trying to make the point for women being the smarter half lol...

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I can *soo* much relate to that story. Wasn't exactly Marshall tones I was after, but I had *no* idea about the relevance of speakers for a pretty long time during my "career". And unlike your mate, in the town where I grew up there were no folks telling you that you needed a particular cab or speaker to get the most out of whatever amps (and that was quite some time before the internet was a thing for mere mortals), so I also built randomly sized cabs with randomly purchased speakers, most of them sounding horrible. Sometimes I accounted the not-too-shiny sound to the amps, so the amps were sold - just to find out the replacements would sound as horrible. But as they sounded horrible differently, I still didn't realize it was up to the speakers.

Fortunately, at one point in time, I bought a Boogie Caliber 50 and built a clone of their 2x12 half slanted cabs (those with the open back top and Thiele/Small ported bottoms, originals were more expensive than the amp...) with pretty similar sounding Celestion speakers in them (don't remember exactly, which ones they were but at least they sounded great and close to the Black Shadows in the original I had borrowed for the cloning thing and comparison). Still didn't exactly know how much my then great sound was about the speakers, but at least I could call it a day for some years - and all other cabs I bought ever since (and before aquiring more knowledge) have been lucky numbers.

My most drastic personal eye opener in terms of speaker importance happened quite some years later. I sort of blindly bought one of those red knob "The Twins" because I couldn't resist that offer (price was a joke). Clean sound was ok (sometimes great), anything else sounded completely like @ss. Always thought it was a bad buy, especially because I often heard comments such as "Ouch, the red knob Fender series, only complete tools would buy those!" Then fortunately someone recommended I should just connect my Mesa clone cab instead - and *WOO-f***ing-OOW*, I could hardly believe it. Turned that horribly gnarly, bite-y, speaker beaming, ear torturing mess into what I still think of being at least the second best pedal platform I ever owned. Really, I couldn't believe the difference. Plugged between the internal speakers and my cab like a hundred times, that's how stunned I was.
Finally slapped some decent speakers (an aged V30 and a Peavey Sheffield I had in the Mesa clone for whatever reasons) into that Fender and it was all glorious.
Only took me around 1.5 decades to understand the importance of speakers...

I think i learned that lesson finally in the late 80s when after my entire youth i use old Marshall cabs with whatever was in them ore V30 and had front ported 6 Rivera 2x12 cabs loaded with different speakers.
The Fanes and EV loaded ones were fine. The JBL was terrible. Until i just started mixing it in.

In the early 90s when I ditched the Rivers in fave of Trem-o-verb and XTC 212 combos i also went looking for a 4x12 and i fou d one that just sounded way better than all V30 cabs.
But not til i started sticking 57s on it it did i feel compelled ti open it Up.
Two greenue on top of two V30. I know not unusual but this was 93.

Then about 3 years later I get a Guytron...that cab literally worst cab i ever used filor my needs.
Had the amp modded so it was useable and still ended up selling it to Suhr who disliked it as much as me.
That was after Henderson already ditched his.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

While a lot of people used those lockdown sessions to bag on him and his wife, I thought it was one of the most endearing things I’d ever seen. That dude looks at her like I look at guitars. Not sure I’ll ever look at a woman like that again, but that doesn’t stop me from being stoked for those that do.

I make it a point of having that look reserved for music (not gear, music).

But i know the look well from my 2nd wife and while i find him adorable my opinion of her hasn't changed since the 80s.

 

[mavrick102000]

No one ever just does a little coke. The answer is ALWAYS “lots”.

Why numb only part of your face, when you can numb your entire body and hair?

 

[Jarick]

I’ve used genelec 8010s for years now. (10?) Was happy with them…decent speakers, not to shabby reviews from studioworlds...very petite though.
one of them broke down…I decided to replace instead of repair…and got me the same model…but 3 sizes bigger..the 8040.
In 5 minutes…listening to my own tracks…if I had owned these speakers while making those mixes/dialing those sounds…I would have made other choices. So..my reference monitors…even between 2 sets of very good ones…determine my endresult…probably even more then what modeling I use. I always thought so…but not to this degree.

Question is…will it change for the better from now on. Other mixes sound better on the 8040…so in theory I’m gonna make better choices from now on regarding sound/mixes.

So I can 100% agree with this at this point.

I wasn't happy with playing through JBL 305's, so I spent $1000+ to upgrade to Genelec 8020's, and I'm not happy playing through those either. They're accurate and revealing, but that's not really what you want when playing guitar. You want big and smooth. The forward and unflattering midrange/treble exposes every tiny little issue with the guitar sound, especially the impulse response. You can easily spend way too much time trying to dial that in, which I did.

So I tried a couple solid state combos and ran modelers through the power amp and cab part, and that was very hit or miss. Of course the sound was very dependent on both the speaker and the cabinet. But there were still EQ issues, too much low and high end.

Then I tried a tube amp and speaker cabinet and that was finally a very satisfying experience. The highs and lows were under control and the response/feel was a little more satisfying overall.

And finally back to studio monitors, I picked up a huge set of JBL 306's on a whim, and those sound much, much better for playing guitar. The big woofer plays lower and seems flatter at those low frequencies, and the upper midrange is more relaxed letting the guitar sit back more. It's more forgiving in terms of sounds, and more satisfying to play all around.

All of this, just as you said, was independent of modelers. I tried the HX Stomp, Axe FX 3, NDSP plugins, and most recently the Kemper.

I'm pretty sure that, if I had a pair of 6.5" or even 8" studio monitors in my room years ago, I probably wouldn't have gone through as much of a rabbit hole in terms of impulses and modelers. And that's not to say that big monitors are always better, especially in a small untreated room, but that they seem much better for playing guitar through a modeler.

 

[Jarick]

Funny as I'm just looking this morning to see if it's worth returning the JBL's to "upgrade" to something else.

Here's the JBL vs some competition:

JBL LSR 306

Focal Alpha Evo 65

Yamaha HS7

Genelec 8030

They seem to punch above their weight for sure. The Yamaha's are going to be brighter and less flat, the Focals are also a bit uneven for frequency response, and the Genelecs are going to be flatter but at over three times the cost.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Funny as I'm just looking this morning to see if it's worth returning the JBL's to "upgrade" to something else.

Here's the JBL vs some competition:

JBL LSR 306

Focal Alpha Evo 65

Yamaha HS7

Genelec 8030

They seem to punch above their weight for sure. The Yamaha's are going to be brighter and less flat, the Focals are also a bit uneven for frequency response, and the Genelecs are going to be flatter but at over three times the cost.

I have had my JBL 305's V1 for a long time now and they still give me what I need.

 

[burningyen]

I wasn't happy with playing through JBL 305's, so I spent $1000+ to upgrade to Genelec 8020's, and I'm not happy playing through those either. They're accurate and revealing, but that's not really what you want when playing guitar. You want big and smooth. The forward and unflattering midrange/treble exposes every tiny little issue with the guitar sound, especially the impulse response.

I see this idea on the forums a lot, and it still makes no sense to me if the goal is for your sound to have the best possible chance of translating well to other systems. I absolutely want my playback system to be accurate and revealing, just like when I'm looking in a mirror I want to see what I actually look like. If my playing sounds harsh and unpleasant through an accurate and revealing playback system, that tells me something's wrong upstream of the playback system. And as you rightly pointed out, it's usually the IR.

 

[Jarick]

I see this idea on the forums a lot, and it still makes no sense to me if the goal is for your sound to have the best possible chance of translating well to other systems. I absolutely want my playback system to be accurate and revealing, just like when I'm looking in a mirror I want to see what I actually look like. If my playing sounds harsh and unpleasant through an accurate and revealing playback system, that tells me something's wrong upstream of the playback system. And as you rightly pointed out, it's usually the IR.

Yeah, that’s not my goal. I’m not translating to other systems. Just playing for fun. Kind of like listening on a hifi system that has a little more bass and treble.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Nothing wrong to go for speakers that are the most pleasing in your mancave, but personally I want speakers that reduce the chance of unwanted surprises in mixes/recordings/signals to foh.

Absolutely.

One thing worth mentioning, though: Usually, anything coming out of the FOH system isn't all that accurate anymore, either - pretty much all close monitoring systems (even cheaper ones) will usually provide more accuracy. The reason being roomsizes and distances, including all the resulting reflections, delay lines and what not. Hardly any typical live venue is really treated soundwise. So they (or the PA company or maybe even you) slap some kind of PA in and call it a day. Speakers are typically above people's heads, listening positions vary wildly, etc.
As a result of all that, your sound will be way less direct once it's running through any such a system. Hence, any less direct monitoring system would only kinda reflect that.

And no, I'm not saying anyone should go for a less accurate monitoring - just that it might not matter as much, at least not as long as it's about live playing (for recording and producing, you obviously want a very accurate, well transfering system).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Also, I remain optimistic that a good engineer dials in a PA system with reference audio / measurements…which in theory have the same baseline as reference monitors.

Nah. Go to any soundcheck and listening while they're measuring things in, listening to reference audio and what not. It really *never* sounds close to whatever kind of monitors, for a variety of reasons.

I obviously and completely agree with the rest of your post. Whenever you can, dial your sound in on as accurate systems as possible.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I dont think we contradic.

No, we defenitely don't, it's all fine.
All I was saying is that some things might not be all *that* important.
Heck, when dealing with traditional cabs and mics in a live context, we're further away from being "in control" than with even some really cheap monitors. The sound we're listening to pretty much 100% certainly is almost night and day compared what's coming out of a PA in that case.