It’s not the modeler…it’s something else that determines the endresult.

[AFKAEjay]

I’ve used genelec 8010s for years now. (10?) Was happy with them…decent speakers, not to shabby reviews from studioworlds...very petite though.
one of them broke down…I decided to replace instead of repair…and got me the same model…but 3 sizes bigger..the 8040.
In 5 minutes…listening to my own tracks…if I had owned these speakers while making those mixes/dialing those sounds…I would have made other choices. So..my reference monitors…even between 2 sets of very good ones…determine my endresult…probably even more then what modeling I use. I always thought so…but not to this degree.

Question is…will it change for the better from now on. Other mixes sound better on the 8040…so in theory I’m gonna make better choices from now on regarding sound/mixes.

 

[laxu]

I've been using the same set of Genelec M040 monitors for about 7 years now. They were kind of like a budget version of the 8040 back in the day but still not cheap by any means. Different design, marginally less accurate, different set of inputs and EQ adjustments. Reviewed very favorably in various places.

I think this might be the reason why I haven't had that many issues with modelers from various brands. I don't consider myself some wizard of a player or expert at operating these things so why am I getting tones that I enjoy but some seem to really struggle with the same gear?

During that 7 year period, I've owned, in no particular order, the following modelers:

• Fractal Axe-Fx 2
• Fractal Axe-Fx 3 (currently own)
• Fractal FM3
• Line6 Helix Floor
• NeuralDSP Quad Cortex
• Strymon Iridium (owned one, sold it, bought another one recently because I found uses for it)
• Yamaha THR100HD

I got great tones out of all of these going straight into the Genelecs.

IMO the biggest mistake people make is when they buy some cheap monitoring system after splurging for a top tier digital modeler. People do the exact same thing when they buy an amp head and then the cheapest cab they could find. It's just harder for a guitar cab to be genuinely bad unless you bought something really crappy.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm not a fan of Genelecs. Super hyped low-end and quite difficult to mix with.

 

[Digital Igloo]

We maintain that one's playback system is easily at least 50% of their tone. Your sound is only as good as your weakest link.

My weakest link is my playing.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

We maintain that one's playback system is easily at least 50% of their tone. Your sound is only as good as your weakest link.

My weakest link is my playing.

This 100%, but room acoustics absolutely have to be included into playback system. The monitors you use is one thing, but where they are positioned, and the size/dimensions on the room have a huge influence on how they sound.

 

[jay mitchell]

This 100%, but room acoustics absolutely have to be included into playback system. The monitors you use is one thing, but where they are positioned, and the size/dimensions on the room have a huge influence on how they sound.

Add to that the acoustic properties (e.g., absorption/diffusion) of the surfaces and objects in the listening space.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

IMO the biggest mistake people make is when they buy some cheap monitoring system after splurging for a top tier digital modeler.

^^THIS^^

Similarly, buying the cheapest gig bag after buying an expensive guitar. Oh, or buying a crappy cable under any circumstance.

 

[AFKAEjay]

We maintain that one's playback system is easily at least 50% of their tone. Your sound is only as good as your weakest link.

My weakest link is my playing.

You had me on this one way back ;-) How enjoyable my sound Is in my mancave is out of scope for this hypothesis;-)

Point I am trying to make…whatever I use as reference…has a big influence on what I put out there…in recordings/foh.
I thought I had the decent speakers/reference to make educated choices…turns out, maybe I didn’t ..cause these tell me a whole different truth...same brand/reputation/type.

 

[AFKAEjay]

This 100%, but room acoustics absolutely have to be included into playback system. The monitors you use is one thing, but where they are positioned, and the size/dimensions on the room have a huge influence on how they sound.

Your totaly Right…one could question the added value of high end reference monitors in a room that is not acousticly balanced/treated.

 

[Digital Igloo]

IMO the biggest mistake people make is when they buy some cheap monitoring system after splurging for a top tier digital modeler. People do the exact same thing when they buy an amp head and then the cheapest cab they could find. It's just harder for a guitar cab to be genuinely bad unless you bought something really crappy.

It drives me batty to see this sooo often:

Customer 1: I just bought my first modeler. Why doesn't it sound and feel like my JCM800 full stack?

Customers 2 ~ 100: Download these IRs. Try selecting this distortion model with these settings.

Digital Igloo: Hoooold up, everyone. Customer 1, what's your playback system?

Customer 1: Oh, desktop computer speakers. But I've also checked with my Beats earbuds.

Digital Igloo: Are you expecting desktop computer speakers or Beats earbuds to sound and feel like your JCM800 full stack?

Customer 1: No, I'm expecting the modeler to sound and feel like a JCM800 full stack.

Digital Igloo: <sigh>​

 

[laxu]

I'm not a fan of Genelecs. Super hyped low-end and quite difficult to mix with.

Not my experience at all. Placement and room of course matters. Here in Finland you find Genelec speakers in a ton of studios.

In my hobbyist home setups, I find that in my current space the room actually ends up eating some bass so I just don't use the bass compensation switches on the studio monitors. In my previous space I had different issues, like a nasty room mode around 130 Hz.

 

[Jarick]

It drives me batty to see this sooo often:

Customer 1: I just bought my first modeler. Why doesn't it sound and feel like my JCM800 full stack?

Customers 2 ~ 100: Download these IRs. Try selecting this distortion model with these settings.

Digital Igloo: Hoooold up, everyone. Customer 1, what's your playback system?

Customer 1: Oh, desktop computer speakers. But I've also checked with my Beats earbuds.

Digital Igloo: Are you expecting desktop computer speakers or Beats earbuds to sound and feel like your JCM800 full stack?

Customer 1: No, I'm expecting the modeler to sound and feel like a JCM800 full stack.

Digital Igloo: <sigh>​

Customer 1, posting in a new thread: "What's the best "FRFR" speaker for my modeler? My budget is $20"

 

[la szum]

I have concluded that monitoring is always the great unknown, and the bggest detemining factor of end results.

 

[Jarick]

On a more related note, I upgraded to a pair of Genelec 8020's a few months back and so far I think they're fine, not blowing me away though. They are fairly bright sounding with modelers, although they sound pretty good with music, but overall a bit bland. Granted they are neutral studio monitors, much smaller than your average desktop studio monitors, and in an untreated room.

But when I swapped back over to my old JBL 305's last week, while I got a little more low end impact, I found they lacked a lot of the smoothness and transparency of the Genelecs. They sounded like they had a little boost in the upper mids followed by a dip in the highs. Almost more of a "SHHH" sound instead of "SSSS".

I wish I'd spent a little more on the 8030's, even though I originally picked up the 8010's and exchanged for the 8020's. I think that may have smoothed them out a little more. Still there weren't a lot of options out there for studio monitors that fit on a desk without taking up a ton of space. My JBL's were 12" tall and 9" deep. The 8020's are only 9" tall and 5.5" deep. Makes a huge difference.

At the end of the day, I think I'm better off with an actual guitar speaker sitting under my desk that I can use if I want a "not direct" sound. Otherwise you have to cut a lot of highs off the modeler tone to get it to sound good through the Genelecs.

 

[riffy]

It drives me batty to see this sooo often:

Customer 1: I just bought my first modeler. Why doesn't it sound and feel like my JCM800 full stack?

Customers 2 ~ 100: Download these IRs. Try selecting this distortion model with these settings.

Digital Igloo: Hoooold up, everyone. Customer 1, what's your playback system?

Customer 1: Oh, desktop computer speakers. But I've also checked with my Beats earbuds.

Digital Igloo: Are you expecting desktop computer speakers or Beats earbuds to sound and feel like your JCM800 full stack?

Customer 1: No, I'm expecting the modeler to sound and feel like a JCM800 full stack.

Digital Igloo: <sigh>​

Ya know, with all the advertising and all the word of mouth about modelers, you can't expect the general public to know better.
Ads for the modelers don't mention playback systems. They don't tell you that after you spend almost 2 grand on your modeler,
that you need to spend 1/2 or 2/3s that amount on a good playback system...

Is it unrealistic for some of that to ask that be told also?

 

[TSJMajesty]

Ya know, with all the advertising and all the word of mouth about modelers, you can't expect the general public to know better.
Ads for the modelers don't mention playback systems. They don't tell you that after you spend almost 2 grand on your modeler,
that you need to spend 1/2 or 2/3s that amount on a good playback system...

Is it unrealistic for some of that to ask that be told also?

I agree. I had never used a modeler prior to getting my Axe III, and it was news to me. But I learned it and understood it quickly, since I got right on the FAS forums shortly thereafter.

And even if you have great monitors, there's still a sizeable difference between how they sound, and how a real amp sounds. That, and coming to grips with the simple fact that volume also plays a big role, are 2 other things that people seem to take a while to understand and embrace.

I'm sometimes amazed at how much more awesome my tones sound, just through my headphones, when I crank up some volume in them. Makes me want to leave it there, but I'm not young and stupid any more, so I know I have to protect my hearing, so I only do that for very brief periods of time. And I'd bet most people wouldn't even think it's overly loud.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, try running a JCM 800 fullstack on a 4x4m Jazz Club stage. It won't sound like a JCM 800 fullstack, either. At least not for you (maybe, but really just maybe for the people that you've already scared to run outside).

Hence:

Add to that the acoustic properties (e.g., absorption/diffusion) of the surfaces and objects in the listening space.

 

[jay mitchell]

Fwiw, try running a JCM 800 fullstack on a 4x4m Jazz Club stage.

I knew better than to try something like that close to 50 years ago.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I knew better than to try something like that close to 50 years ago.

Well, Vernon Reid at least once didn't know better.
He was playing here with some incarnation of Defunkt or so, and they really crammed a 4x12 onto the stage of the local (sort of famous but really small) jazz club. Needless to say the sound was less than ideal...

 

[BenIfin]

I’ve used genelec 8010s for years now. (10?) Was happy with them…decent speakers, not to shabby reviews from studioworlds...very petite though.
one of them broke down…I decided to replace instead of repair…and got me the same model…but 3 sizes bigger..the 8040.
In 5 minutes…listening to my own tracks…if I had owned these speakers while making those mixes/dialing those sounds…I would have made other choices. So..my reference monitors…even between 2 sets of very good ones…determine my endresult…probably even more then what modeling I use. I always thought so…but not to this degree.

Question is…will it change for the better from now on. Other mixes sound better on the 8040…so in theory I’m gonna make better choices from now on regarding sound/mixes.

Over the years, I've read many interviews with many high profile "mix engineers" and "mastering pro's" and the one thing they all always pointed out was that ..... they "knew how their monitors sounded" ..... it was never a case of using "the best" monitors .... but rather understanding "how" their chosen monitors sound and respond .... many of them had used their own same preferred monitors for years if not decades, and often took them from session to session.

I've been very lucky ... I bought 2 pairs of very well pre-used NS 10's in 1990 and still use just them to this day ..... I know a lot of people hate them ..... but to me they are just 2nd nature to my ears, and I have no trouble getting my sounds through them ... and those sounds translate great to any other system I play tracks / clips on.

Ben