Helix 3.7: The Freeman Update

[James Freeman]

I have no recent experience with old Marshall amps, more or less how far does the potentiometer has to be open for the cap between Vcc and Output to have no perceptible effect?

10

 

[pablo retamal]

Marshall pod's legacy collection for christmas!

 

[EOengineer]

I have no recent experience with old Marshall amps, more or less how far does the potentiometer has to be open for the cap between Vcc and Output to have no perceptible effect?

10

I've always thought 10 as well, but I've noticed some amps still def have some sort of effect happening with the volume on 10. I'm not sure why this is, but Pete Thorn also experiences that same realization at some point in this video - which makes me feel a little less crazy in my own observations. Sometimes, even with the volume on 10, the bright cap is still doing something - albeit less noticeable.

For those who are lost with the whole bright cap conversation - this video also happens to be a great resource for getting up to speed.

 

[norminal]

I've always thought 10 as well, but I've noticed some amps still def have some sort of effect happening with the volume on 10. I'm not sure why this is, but Pete Thorn also experiences that same realization at some point in this video - which makes me feel a little less crazy in my own observations. Sometimes, even with the volume on 10, the bright cap is still doing something - albeit less noticeable.

For those who are lost with the whole bright cap conversation - this video also happens to be a great resource for getting up to speed.

Fuuuck that SL68 sounds good! I prefer the no-bright cap in most of my use cases, but for the classics, it’s a must IMO.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I've always thought 10 as well, but I've noticed some amps still def have some sort of effect happening with the volume on 10. I'm not sure why this is, but Pete Thorn also experiences that same realization at some point in this video - which makes me feel a little less crazy in my own observations. Sometimes, even with the volume on 10, the bright cap is still doing something - albeit less noticeable.

For those who are lost with the whole bright cap conversation - this video also happens to be a great resource for getting up to speed.

Thank you!!! I had ZERO idea what the hell you guys were talking about, this really helped

 

[James Freeman]

I've noticed some amps still def have some sort of effect happening with the volume on 10.

I seriously doubt that, we literally short the cap legs with volume at 10, electrically it doesn't exist.
--

I can accurately simulate the missing bright caps at specific Gain positions by simulating this part of the circuit in LT Spice, but I have no idea what is actually missing form the Helix model itself, so it is not much better than going by ear.

BTW @DieSchmalle, the 400Hz Freq of the Low and High Shelf is not equal.
ie. Low Shelf Gain -8dB at 400Hz with Level +8dB, is NOT equal to High Shelf Gain +8dB at 400Hz.

 

[James Freeman]

Here's the god honest truth, I am so tired of endlessly tweaking the Helix to get good Marshall tones.
I really just want a few great sounding classic crunchy 80s Marshalls that don't need to be F-ed with to sound correct.

 

[Stone]

 

[the swede]

Here's the god honest truth, I am so tired of endlessly tweaking the Helix to get good Marshall tones.
I really just want a few great sounding classic crunchy 80s Marshalls that don't need to be F-ed with to sound correct.

Let’s hope they do something about it. There’s maybe users that would raise an eyebrow if suddenly a preset they’ve been using for years sounds different. In the end a simple “we had to fix a thing, sorry” would be fine with anyone.

 

[James Freeman]

View attachment 7003

Wait what, you own a Fractal?
But yeah, that darn Brit 2204 sounds like it's missing half the preamp not only the Gain bright cap.

In the end a simple “we had to fix a thing, sorry” would be fine with anyone.

Nah, they don't tend to do that, especially with amp models.
Some people may actually like the current Brit 2204 as it is.

 

[Stone]

Wait what, you own a Fractal?
But yeah, that darn Brit 2204 sounds like it's missing half the preamp not only the Gain bright cap.


Nah, they don't tend to do that, especially with amp models.
Some people may actually like the current Brit 2204 as it is.

Yes I sold My Helix, cant say it didn't serve me well for almost 3 years
as you mentioned a lot less tweaking with EQ and Compressors and what not to get great tones, and the option for fine tuning tweaking if one desires is there
like myself

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Is it possible to deduce what kind of MV Line 6 put on the non MV amps?

I actually quite like a lot of the Helix Marshalll’s, 2204 aside. That one sticks because it’s basically my favourite Marshall circuit and leaves a big hole in that particular sound. I’m really not into the Lee Jackson mods, so it’s quite funny that it would be HIS modded circuit in there as an alternate flavour of 2204. The JEL or Suhr/Bradshaw/CAE, or SIR all sound better to me, let alone the mods Soldano/Bogner/Langner were doing. There’s certain similarities to the fuzziness on the LJ style model that I hear on the Brit 2204 model, and in some ways even more of the stuff I don’t like…

 

[Elf]

I seriously doubt that, we literally short the cap legs with volume at 10, electrically it doesn't exist.
--

I can accurately simulate the missing bright caps at specific Gain positions by simulating this part of the circuit in LT Spice, but I have no idea what is actually missing form the Helix model itself, so it is not much better than going by ear.

BTW @DieSchmalle, the 400Hz Freq of the Low and High Shelf is not equal.
ie. Low Shelf Gain -8dB at 400Hz with Level +8dB, is NOT equal to High Shelf Gain +8dB at 400Hz.

View attachment 7001

View attachment 7002

This is great!!! Thanks for sharing this I’m trying to learn LTspice!

 

[EOengineer]

I seriously doubt that, we literally short the cap legs with volume at 10, electrically it doesn't exist.
--

I can accurately simulate the missing bright caps at specific Gain positions by simulating this part of the circuit in LT Spice, but I have no idea what is actually missing form the Helix model itself, so it is not much better than going by ear.

BTW @DieSchmalle, the 400Hz Freq of the Low and High Shelf is not equal.
ie. Low Shelf Gain -8dB at 400Hz with Level +8dB, is NOT equal to High Shelf Gain +8dB at 400Hz.

View attachment 7001

View attachment 7002

I get that it’s not supposed to be the case, but it’s not some groundbreaking claim that I’ve originated or something. Pete literally catches the behavior in real-time in his video and calls it out specifically, whatever is causing it.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm pretty sure that even when a pot is fully open, it can still have a slight effect upon the tone. We see this in guitar tone pots all the time, so don't see why it would be any difference inside an amp.

 

[EOengineer]

Let’s hope they do something about it. There’s maybe users that would raise an eyebrow if suddenly a preset they’ve been using for years sounds different. In the end a simple “we had to fix a thing, sorry” would be fine with anyone.

I’d expect any attempt to address the issue to almost certainly be with new models.

Obviously spitballing here but maybe Brit Plexi could be updated with the addition of a user adjustable Bright Cap parameter that defaults to “off” to preserve existing presets, but who knows what the situation is with that 2204.

I’m just not sure L6 wants to open the Pandora’s box of providing switchable component values. All the sudden we’re going to have a brigade of people who want the 50k mid pot on their Plexi or enter-your-mod-here or else “L6 doesn’t care about Marshalls” all over again.

It’s a bitch trying to please everyone. On one hand I think I understand why L6 went the direction they did. On the other hand, I’d have just gone with totally stock amps to start because IMO it’s a more defendable decision…this is the circuit, this is what it does. Don’t like it, choose a Friedman or whatever.

 

[GTR37]

If it is who I'm thinking of, I'm rapidly losing enthusiasm for them as well.

There can only be one
It’s not Fractal or Kemper

 

[James Freeman]

I'm pretty sure that even when a pot is fully open, it can still have a slight effect upon the tone. We see this in guitar tone pots all the time, so don't see why it would be any difference inside an amp.

Big difference.
With guitar wiring you still have a 500k (or whatever) tone pot in series with the tone cap when the tone control is wide open.
While a Gain bright cap is shorted with gain at 10, meaning zero current is flowing through the cap, effectively like the cap doesn't exist.

Pete literally catches the behavior in real-time in his video and calls it out specifically, whatever is causing it.

At what timestamp?

At 1:38 Pete says when the Vol is "all the way down" it still sends some signal to the wiper, which is wrong because the wiper is grounded.
When the pot is all the way down the wiper (output) is grounded so there is no sound from that channel, and at 10 the cap is shorted, in both situation (0 and 10) the cap does nothing.
You have a 1959 with switchable bright caps? You can test this.

On the other hand, I’d have just gone with totally stock amps to start because IMO it’s a more defendable decision…this is the circuit, this is what it does. Don’t like it, choose a Friedman or whatever.

Exactly.
Bone stock classics first, then go nuts.
That was always my opinion.

 

[EOengineer]

At what timestamp?

At 1:38 Pete says when the Vol is "all the way down" it still sends some signal to the wiper, which is wrong because the wiper is grounded.
When the pot is all the way down the wiper (output) is grounded so there is no sound from that channel, and at 10 the cap is shorted, in both situation (0 and 10) the cap does nothing.
You have a 1959 with switchable bright caps? You can test this.

I apparently fabricated that (unintentionally). Sorry about that. Memory is a funny thing. At ~14:55 you see him switch the cap back in with Volume I around 8 and I must have turned my own “wow I didn’t expect the cap to be that effective at 8” into something else.

I’ll drag my 1959 and 2204 out this week to test (and likely confirm) what you’ve already stated. I never fully crank the drive up on those so I haven’t paid much attention to the behavior under those conditions, but I agree it should be nil.

 

[James Freeman]

Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread

I thought I should clean the Helix threads form my repetitive JCM800 requests, to keep things cleaner and so people know what thread NOT to read. I will slowly moving all my JCM800 posts and memes here. Sorry for being annoying AF, this should mitigate it a little. Also, my old JCM800 thread...

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