Fractal Talk

[MirrorProfiles]

The Axe-Fx 2 came to be because the Axe-Fx Std/Ultra ran out of firmware space. The Axe-Fx 3 was made because the Axe-Fx 2 DSPs got discontinued like you said.

Looking at TI's DSP range, the Axe-Fx 3 TMS320C6657 DSP chip is $47.85 / 1000 units. This has 2x C66x cores.

The next step up is a model with 4x C66x cores, so double the performance of the Axe-Fx 3, if good parallel processing utilization can be achieved. Except this chip costs $130.5 / 1000 units. So almost triple the price of the current ones.

Ok, but what about using two of the original chips? That's still $95.7 per device and incurs more latency penalties.

So for Fractal to make a faster than Axe-Fx 3 device, they would have to put down a lot of money for the DSP alone before they even have a full product to sell and recoup those costs. At the same time, I would wager 99% of users are not maxing out even the original Axe-Fx 3.

While throwing more processing power at it could potentially mean further accuracy for amp/cab modeling and fx, realistically the needle doesn't move a whole lot when all of those are exceptional already.

But the problem is that Line6 is going to release something with a more modern user interface and more processing power, probably using a similar DSP to what the Quad Cortex uses unless Line6 decides to go with ARM instead.

Let's imagine an alternate world where the Quad Cortex didn't have all its problems. What if the last 3 years the QC life looked like this:

• There were never any power/noise/wifi/security issues.
• Computer editor has already been out for a good while.
• Latency issues have been fixed.
• A lot more amp and fx models have been added and their overall performance improved.
• Capture quality has been improved and compares favorably to Tonex and NAM. I mean it kinda does anyway but let's say even for sticklers about null tests etc.
• MIDI capabilities have been improved so even if you don't like the spacing of the footswitches, just add your favorite controller.
• Content management is a lot better, with offline backups via editor etc.
• There's an online marketplace for buying/selling captures, presets and IRs.

How many people would still flock to Fractal, if we assume they did nothing different in the same timeframe? The company whose Axe-Fx 3 product page still reads "A large 800×480 color display" as one of its highlights. I feel NeuralDSP's incompetence has been a big boon for both Fractal and Line6. If NDSP did better, they could have captured a big chunk of the modeling market. Including yours truly, most likely.

For the next gen, I feel like Fractal doesn't need to do anything but modernize their user interface. But at the same time people are going to be expecting them to overhaul a bunch of stuff or to offer even better modeling capabilities.

It would be a huge achievement for Fractal to get the interface right, but I just don’t see them investing any massive interest there. It always feels like they’d rather spend the time on adding more amp models or finessing some modelling behaviours.

The only Fractal unit that would turn my head from the current FM-3 I have is either a smaller/cheaper device with at least the same processing power or (preferably) a plugin.

A more advanced screen and HW, with even more processing power that I don’t need/want and larger cost doesn’t appeal at all. I also hope there’s no focus put on capturing/profiling type tech but it seems like (at least at the moment) customers expect some kind of “capture your rig” capability.

Line 6 and Neural both offer products that appeal to those who want a recording based ITB solution, or those who want something on the go. Fractal don’t really have anything particularly small or ITB (save for the old reverb plugin etc). IMO, those are the new customers they should focus on grabbing. An Axe FX 4 is basically just going after their existing userbase. I think most people who are prepared to invest in an Axe FX 3 rig know what they’re in for, improving their user experience would be nice but IMO they aren’t the customers that need their mind changed.

 

[James Freeman]

Line6 is going to release something with a more modern user interface and more processing power, probably using a similar DSP to what the Quad Cortex uses unless Line6 decides to go with ARM instead.

This is another reason.
The Fractal is expensive and no hardware revision remained unchanged for more than 2 years, I really feel I should wait 1-1.5 years to see what both Fractal and Line 6 are cooking if anything.

 

[Stone]

This is another reason.
The Fractal is expensive and no hardware revision remained unchanged for more than 2 years, I really feel I should wait 1-1.5 years to see what both Fractal and Line 6 are cooking if anything.

This is very Sound thinking, more so i would think L6 is going to deliver next Gen before Fractal does

 

[laxu]

This is another reason.
The Fractal is expensive and no hardware revision remained unchanged for more than 2 years, I really feel I should wait 1-1.5 years to see what both Fractal and Line 6 are cooking if anything.

The hardware revisions don't really matter much. The Axe-Fx 3 Mk1 users are mainly losing out on Fullres IR storage and that feature is still largely underutilized. I had an Axe-Fx 2 Mk1 for the entirety of the generation's lifespan and never felt I missed anything from the XL/XL+ models.

But I get not wanting to buy one, then find out they release a new one in 1-1.5 years.

Fractal said this in their last Axe-Fx 3 summer sale though:

(And no, this isn't a sign of Axe-Fx IV or any new FC models on the horizon — we're already planning/hoping to build some big batches of these for the 2023-24 holiday season.)

Of course, this means any bets are off for what happens in 2024. I wouldn't expect they release an Axe-Fx 4 right at the start of 2024 to replace what they just sold people for the holidays though.

 

[Orvillain]

The one thing I'd mainly like from an Axe 4 is for my block presets to be stored on the unit itself, and not be so overly reliant on being connected to a computer.

 

[Tanax]

Lifecycle?

If a IV comes out does that mean the III is dead?

I have a FM9. I absolutely love it. The FM9 Turbo came out. I don't care. I still love my FM9.

Three years from now, even if Fractal introduces new and better modelers I'll still love the FM9.

The III Turbo came out. I still love my original III and have no need or desire to upgrade.

To me, the possibility of newer and better modelers coming out doesn't detract from the experiences I'm having today but wouldn't if FOMO prevented me from getting what's available now.

As a wise person once said, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

This is true. But at one point they will stop being supported. So far, Axe2 is still technically supported but it doesn't receive anything new. Does that mean it sounds worse than it did when you bought it? Of course not. As long as it's supported it's fine. But at one point they won't support the drivers anymore, or the OS you're using, etc. At that point, it's effectively dead.

 

[Foxmeister]

At that point, it's effectively dead.

Not really - even in a world where you can no longer hook it up to a computer, it will still function entirely standalone.

It's also more likely to an issue for Mac users than it is for Windows users, as Apple OS upgrades can often deprecate or break older software so it simply won't run, whereas Microsoft have good track record - you can still run some Windows 95 apps on Windows 11.

 

[Stratzrus]

This is true. But at one point they will stop being supported...At that point, it's effectively dead.

Not really - even in a world where you can no longer hook it up to a computer, it will still function entirely standalone.

Agreed.

As long as it's working it's not dead.

It's an interesting phenomenon that IMO due to Fractal offering multiple firmware updates for it's modelers that some users now feel that if they don't get any more updates then the unit is obsolete.

I still have my Ultra and it works fine.

I still have my FX8 and it works fine.

Same for my first generation III and FM9.

I don't need to hook them up to a computer to use them. While I have updated firmware on the first three I haven't on the FM9 and have never used Axe Edit on any of them.

I understand that some feel that they need to have the latest and greatest and are concerned that if they buy today's product that something will come out in a few months that's better and they'll feel they made a mistake buying when they did.

Personally, I didn't feel that way when the XL and Turbo versions were released. I'm not at all upset that the III Turbo and FM9 Turbo came out and they have capabilities that mine don't. None of those missing features are deal breakers for me. One exception was that I sold my original II (didn't get the XL) to get a III because the III was a significant advance forward and the platform was billed as being the one that future offerings would use so that upgrades for the iII would also be migrated to things like the FM3 and FM9 but not the II .

I'd rather have it and use it, with the option of upgrading if necessary, than to not have it out of concern that someday there might be something better or that firmware updates would no longer be offered or compatible.

 

[Gearzilla]

This is another reason.
The Fractal is expensive and no hardware revision remained unchanged for more than 2 years, I really feel I should wait 1-1.5 years to see what both Fractal and Line 6 are cooking if anything.

 

[GTR37]

It would be a huge achievement for Fractal to get the interface right, but I just don’t see them investing any massive interest there. It always feels like they’d rather spend the time on adding more amp models or finessing some modelling behaviours.

The only Fractal unit that would turn my head from the current FM-3 I have is either a smaller/cheaper device with at least the same processing power or (preferably) a plugin.

A more advanced screen and HW, with even more processing power that I don’t need/want and larger cost doesn’t appeal at all. I also hope there’s no focus put on capturing/profiling type tech but it seems like (at least at the moment) customers expect some kind of “capture your rig” capability.

Line 6 and Neural both offer products that appeal to those who want a recording based ITB solution, or those who want something on the go. Fractal don’t really have anything particularly small or ITB (save for the old reverb plugin etc). IMO, those are the new customers they should focus on grabbing. An Axe FX 4 is basically just going after their existing userbase. I think most people who are prepared to invest in an Axe FX 3 rig know what they’re in for, improving their user experience would be nice but IMO they aren’t the customers that need their mind changed.

Agreed if they could do FM0 with bigger screen , better interface
And maybe one of the TI chips used in the A3 and a separate ARM or Sharc but the problem is the cooling how do you do that in such a small box

 

[AutomationBias]

Yup. Last year it was something else. And the year before it was something something else. And they year before that it was....


Well..... you get the point.

I trust none of them, due to their sordid history with a bunch of different "FRFR" options that were always "the best!"

On the bright side, the EV is made by a real company and is actually obtainable. That's an improvement from 'get on a waitlist for two years and hope for the best' or 'send $900 to a guy working out of his garage and cross your fingers'.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

This is true. But at one point they will stop being supported. So far, Axe2 is still technically supported but it doesn't receive anything new. Does that mean it sounds worse than it did when you bought it? Of course not. As long as it's supported it's fine. But at one point they won't support the drivers anymore, or the OS you're using, etc. At that point, it's effectively dead.

FracPad

 

[TSJMajesty]

The least they could do in the next update is put all the Blocks in alphabetical order on the unit!!!

 

[deathbyguitar]

The new flavor of "FRFR" is the EV PXM12 MP, plenty of buzz about it on the FAS forum

I tried one last week side by side with a Yamaha DHR12M. The EV is a bit smaller and lighter but it felt like it had more low mids (which I didnt like). I ended up buying 2 of the Yamahas. They're on sale right now for like $680. I'm planning on doing a detailed "FRFR" comparison video for a few different speakers. Gonna try and see if I can rent the EV for the video and maybe try and find a CLR somewhere in central NC that I can borrow.

 

[Stone]

I tried one last week side by side with a Yamaha DHR12M. The EV is a bit smaller and lighter but it felt like it had more low mids (which I didnt like). I ended up buying 2 of the Yamahas. They're on sale right now for like $680. I'm planning on doing a detailed "FRFR" comparison video for a few different speakers. Gonna try and see if I can rent the EV for the video and maybe try and find a CLR somewhere in central NC that I can borrow.

Looks to be same design just different speaker and amp functions
But Yamaha makes great stuff be interesting to hear

 

[deathbyguitar]

Looks to be same design just different speaker and amp functions
But Yamaha makes great stuff be interesting to hear

I didn't like the fact that the EV had a screen and some rotary dials and other crap like phantom power. I don't need that for something that's just gonna be used as a guitar speaker. Didn't try their guitar speaker mode but that's what I have IRs for.

 

[la szum]

Well have to say i really love my Powercabs whatever one wants to call them, they fit my needs

Didn't you say exactly the same thing about your Helix, too?

 

[la szum]

FRFRs with DSP increase latency.

And.


The end.

 

[Rock Chalk]

My curiosity on Fractal stuff has piqued recently but when I look at the price and remember Fractal's hardware lifecycle I can't help myself but to think twice.
The angst is real, if I buy a Fractal this year I am almost certain the IV is going to drop out of nowhere.
How do I decide?

My take on the Fractal paradigm is this: Get in on the ground level (1st revision) of each product you buy, and that will usually get you
through to the next major revision......that has worked for me so far.

 

[shanesiegle]

I tried one last week side by side with a Yamaha DHR12M. The EV is a bit smaller and lighter but it felt like it had more low mids (which I didnt like). I ended up buying 2 of the Yamahas. They're on sale right now for like $680. I'm planning on doing a detailed "FRFR" comparison video for a few different speakers. Gonna try and see if I can rent the EV for the video and maybe try and find a CLR somewhere in central NC that I can borrow.

I got a DHR12m a month or two ago and love it! Planning on a second. I don’t care about the dsp stuff it sounds perfect as is.