Fractal Talk

If you watch recordings of live EVH shows before the 90s, Ed still has THAT tone. Sure I agree there is definitely some studio magic that adds to the sound, but he was also able to get that sound live. Same with Eric Johnson, he was able to get some pretty magical sounds live. Sure maybe the sound engineer for the venue was adding some special sauce at the mixer, but it wasn't all studio magic.

Also, I own a 5150 and the Fractal model has always sounded really close. The TMP sounded worlds apart with their first iteration. Inexcusable considering they are partners with the EVH brand or whatever.
But there are alot of variations between 5150s.

How was it that the original release was so different and then "just like that" it sounded indistinguishable from the Fractal? My guess is they took their original creation and tone matched it to the Fractal.
 
Some original EVH guitar stems were posted on YT, don't know if they are still there. They were shrill and trebly AND they were recorded to console/ tape and who knows how many generations of copies and/or eq.
FWIW, I would wager that any EVH "stems" you are hearing on YouTube in 2024 are not actual isolated tracks from the 1977 analog tapes. Shocker I know. :p

They are likely some algorithms guess at what the guitar only portion of the track is... which may or may not have some bearing on reality; I agree that real ISO tracks are often interesting and can help shed light on questions but I would not trust supposed ISO tracks of ancient classic recordings on YT. Generally think of them as more of a novelty than anything else; would not cite them as evidence of much.
 
FWIW, I would wager that any EVH "stems" you are hearing on YouTube in 2024 are not actual isolated tracks from the 1977 analog tapes. Shocker I know. :p

They are likely some algorithms guess at what the guitar only portion of the track is... which may or may not have some bearing on reality; I agree that real ISO tracks are often interesting and can help shed light on questions but I would not trust supposed ISO tracks of ancient classic recordings on YT. Generally think of them as more of a novelty than anything else; would not cite them as evidence of much.
Warning: Long and meandering discussion about reality of guitar tones.

It was over five years ago, so I don't know the origin. I think it was before modern stem extraction, but I don't know for sure. I agree its impossible to know their origin.

When I first got into mic recording circa 2000, I learned that even though modelers of that time were primitive (I had a Johnson J-Station), it sounded better than what I could get with an SM57 on cone, recorded into a prosumer interface of the time.

My impression is that the vast majority of the ways you can mic up cabs are wrong/inferior, compared to what can be done with mutliple mics, at the exact right position, into highest quality conversion, with best possible channel strip, etc.

In fact, what really happened imo, is that Fractal/IRs became commonplace and that the best tones were positively selected on the internet, by clicks/likes and eventually everyone's rig started to converge to a certain produced sounds that everyone agreed was the best. This evolution mostly took place in the 2010-2020 time frame imo. A direct Fractal tone in 2024 is considerably better than what was produced in studios prior to digital.

What happened next was once this "standard" had been accepted, people went back to recreate it with real mics. There wasn't a parallel evolution of analog recording with digital direct.

So what started out was the wild west with mics on cones, with expensive desks in the 60/70/80/90s, eventually got digitized/consensualized, and then people went back and worked to recreate the best tones (consensus reached through click algorithms) that digital had reached, with real mics.

So what is real? I think this consensus that was reached with digital modeling/IRs is probably vastly different than the sounds put out the original amps and cabs, which were run through an expensive desk and tape.

IOW, what people like about modern guitar tones evolved from modeling and youtube likes, and the different devices have now converged to that, even if it is "incorrect" or vastly different than what the original gear sounded like.

So, as that relates to the TMP 5150. It may actually be closest to the real amp they modeled, or perhaps they used some creative liberty to make it "better", but the internet was having none of that, so they went back and tone matched the fractal. That is my belief.
 
Warning: Long and meandering discussion about reality of guitar tones.

It was over five years ago, so I don't know the origin. I think it was before modern stem extraction, but I don't know for sure. I agree its impossible to know their origin.

When I first got into mic recording circa 2000, I learned that even though modelers of that time were primitive (I had a Johnson J-Station), it sounded better than what I could get with an SM57 on cone, recorded into a prosumer interface of the time.

My impression is that the vast majority of the ways you can mic up cabs are wrong/inferior, compared to what can be done with mutliple mics, at the exact right position, into highest quality conversion, with best possible channel strip, etc.

In fact, what really happened imo, is that Fractal/IRs became commonplace and that the best tones were positively selected on the internet, by clicks/likes and eventually everyone's rig started to converge to a certain produced sounds that everyone agreed was the best. This evolution mostly took place in the 2010-2020 time frame imo. A direct Fractal tone in 2024 is considerably better than what was produced in studios prior to digital.

What happened next was once this "standard" had been accepted, people went back to recreate it with real mics. There wasn't a parallel evolution of analog recording with digital direct.

So what started out was the wild west with mics on cones, with expensive desks in the 60/70/80/90s, eventually got digitized/consensualized, and then people went back and worked to recreate the best tones (consensus reached through click algorithms) that digital had reached, with real mics.

So what is real? I think this consensus that was reached with digital modeling/IRs is probably vastly different than the sounds put out the original amps and cabs, which were run through an expensive desk and tape.

IOW, what people like about modern guitar tones evolved from modeling and youtube likes, and the different devices have now converged to that, even if it is "incorrect" or vastly different than what the original gear sounded like.

So, as that relates to the TMP 5150. It may actually be closest to the real amp they modeled, or perhaps they used some creative liberty to make it "better", but the internet was having none of that, so they went back and tone matched the fractal. That is my belief.
I was kind of following your logic until you got to the last paragraph. If they tone matched the fractal for the 5150, then why didn't they just do that for all amps? That makes no sense.
 
I was kind of following your logic until you got to the last paragraph. If they tone matched the fractal for the 5150, then why didn't they just do that for all amps? That makes no sense.
Because metal amps are in the wheelhouse of the fractal.

The perception of correctness has nothing to do with how it matches the real amps, but how it matches the fractal.

Remember, the amp model + IR is modeling a produced sound, a consensus on the ideal that was reached by the internet click algorithm. And Fractal was at the forefront of that evolution.

It probably wasn't done for the other amps because there wasn't any outcry.

Put another way, outcry on the internet is a more powerful force than the reality of how close their model matches their in house amp.
 
Last edited:
That is the problem with this whole thing. Many modelers create what people think it sounded like, not what it actually sounded like.

Some original EVH guitar stems were posted on YT, don't know if they are still there. They were shrill and trebly AND they were recorded to console/ tape and who knows how many generations of copies and/or eq.

If someone didnt have a Neve console and the best mics, and just stuck an SM57 into their Mackie mixer or 4-track, what would it have sounded like? My guess is that people would put the mic right on dust cap and use the tape loss of high end to balance it out.

I think the approach was largely to just stick mics on it and use EQ/mix on the board, plus neve/api sound of the console to make it work. And then use compressors and reverb tank sparingly.

The coveted EJ sound? How much of that was done at the board?


My opinion of modelers is that they are converging on a "fakeness" that people like based on modern recording techniques and a produced sound.

Fender TMP came out with a 5150 model that people generally didn't like. Someone did an AB shootout with the Fractal 5150 and they were different! So a few months later, Fender rolls out a patch where the 5150 now sounds nearly identical to the AB with the Fractal (and they gave some explanation that I forget.) Was the new 5150 more realistic, or did they tone match it to the Fractal because its what people expect? I think the latter.

I don’t agree at all at least with regard to fractal and helix. It’s just as easy to make them sound bad as it is a traditional amp/cab/mic. They don’t always sound polished and smooth. You can make them do that, and a lot of the defaults and presets have that going on, but if you just grab an amp model with knobs at a rough starting point, appropriate cab, and a mic you’re familiar with pointed in a good starting point location on the speaker my experience is that it sounds very much like the real deal does for better or worse.

Some of us aren’t brainwashed into thinking that those smooth, polished tones are what we’re looking for. I learned to dial in tones by listening to isolated guitar tracks. What I’m dialing in for live play, especially in larger than 3-4 piece formats, is better described as bright and brash. It doesn’t sound that great in isolation, but it pops in the mix. I have not had any trouble doing this in fractal or helix, neither one is idealized where I can’t get just the real, raw kind of sounds.

D
 
FWIW, I would wager that any EVH "stems" you are hearing on YouTube in 2024 are not actual isolated tracks from the 1977 analog tapes. Shocker I know. :p

They are likely some algorithms guess at what the guitar only portion of the track is... which may or may not have some bearing on reality; I agree that real ISO tracks are often interesting and can help shed light on questions but I would not trust supposed ISO tracks of ancient classic recordings on YT. Generally think of them as more of a novelty than anything else; would not cite them as evidence of much.

I’m pretty sure the room mics track came from this-

 
I don’t agree at all at least with regard to fractal and helix. It’s just as easy to make them sound bad as it is a traditional amp/cab/mic. They don’t always sound polished and smooth. You can make them do that, and a lot of the defaults and presets have that going on, but if you just grab an amp model with knobs at a rough starting point, appropriate cab, and a mic you’re familiar with pointed in a good starting point location on the speaker my experience is that it sounds very much like the real deal does for better or worse.

Some of us aren’t brainwashed into thinking that those smooth, polished tones are what we’re looking for. I learned to dial in tones by listening to isolated guitar tracks. What I’m dialing in for live play, especially in larger than 3-4 piece formats, is better described as bright and brash. It doesn’t sound that great in isolation, but it pops in the mix. I have not had any trouble doing this in fractal or helix, neither one is idealized where I can’t get just the real, raw kind of sounds.

D
Not owning a Fractal or a 5150, the TMP 5150 sounded as good as the Fractal 5150. And with tweaking the knobs or swapping IRs, I am certain you could get virtually identical result with either one.

There is the problem though. The people who care about these things ABed them through the same IR and found them different. Of course the assumption was that the Fractal was correct. Lo and behold, a couple months later TMP updated the model and it sounded virtually identical.

Its just a tone match they had to do based on public perception that the Fractal was more correct.

Fender owns rights to the 5150 model and it is hard for me to believe that they "screwed up" the accuracy of the model. It sounded the same as the Fractal but with a different EQ. The explanation was probably hand waving. They changed it to appease the market.

Their original model was probably closer to their in-house example.
 
Back
Top