Fractal Talk

Angry Office Space GIF
 
DLC86 said:
Cuz not every effect works the same. E.g. if you did that on a chorus, phaser or flanger block you would perceive a volume boost when the effect is turned on.
On reverb and delays the same principle is applied but it's more debatable, since in most cases you perceive those as separate from the dry signal.

PS: but I guess the rationale for the latter is to maintain the overall output level constant as you turn the mix knob
Click to expand...

It makes sense for the dry to reduce only for mix above 50%. At 50% and below it should be 0db.

D
 
DLC86 said:
If you talk about delays, reverbs and similar I can agree
Click to expand...

Chorus, flangers, phasers, same thing. Really all effects would be expected to behave this way.

I just don’t get it if that chart is right. Why would anyone make it more complicated than the dry signal staying flat until you get above 50%? Then it behaves consistently regardless of the block and you just use your ears to adjust to any minor discrepancy in how you perceive it in your patch or where you want the sound to sit in the mix.

Even if you wanted to treat different blocks differently on the dry level, one would expect that similar blocks behave the same. That chart shows 3 different dry options between the delay blocks. Just makes no sense to me.

Who would ever think a 50% mix compressor should drop their dry volume by 6dB? Does any parallel compressor pedal on the market do that? I’m not aware of any. I’ve been struggling to get the compressor block to do what I want/expect at certain settings, now I understand why…

It is what it is, but that’s a lot of unnecessary stuff to keep up with.

D
 
dk_ace said:
It makes sense for the dry to reduce only for mix above 50%. At 50% and below it should be 0db.

D
Click to expand...
How exactly would that work? up to 50% you'd keep adding more reverb but NOT taking away any dry level (so the output from the block would keep increasing) and then what, from 50% on ward the wet signal stays put but the dry signal reduces in volume gardually until hitting zero? So the overall output from the reverb block would be like a bell curve (or maybe just a triangle) with a peak at 50%? Sounds like a gain staging nightmare.

In terms of parallel compression -- How would a pedal allow for full compressed signal all the way to no compressed signal if it wasn't working in a similar fashion? If all the mix knob is doing is adding in effected signal, any compression pedal with a "mix" knob would ONLY allow for parallel compression which...certainly isn't the case with the ones I've used.

EDIT TO ADD: I just took the Kinky Comp in my stomp from 0% mix to 100% mix and didn't notice any dramatic output level change where if the dry level were NOT being reduced as the mix level increased, there would be a pretty darn dramatic level increase (same would be true for stuff like chorus/flange really where the effect is not significantly delayed with respect to the dry level).
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
How exactly would that work? up to 50% you'd keep adding more reverb but NOT taking away any dry level (so the output from the block would keep increasing) and then what, from 50% on ward the wet signal stays put but the dry signal reduces in volume gardually until hitting zero? So the overall output from the reverb block would be like a bell curve (or maybe just a triangle) with a peak at 50%? Sounds like a gain staging nightmare.

In terms of parallel compression -- How would a pedal allow for full compressed signal all the way to no compressed signal if it wasn't working in a similar fashion? If all the mix knob is doing is adding in effected signal, any compression pedal with a "mix" knob would ONLY allow for parallel compression which...certainly isn't the case with the ones I've used.

EDIT TO ADD: I just took the Kinky Comp in my stomp from 0% mix to 100% mix and didn't notice any dramatic output level change where if the dry level were NOT being reduced as the mix level increased, there would be a pretty darn dramatic level increase (same would be true for stuff like chorus/flange really where the effect is not significantly delayed with respect to the dry level).
Click to expand...

A gain staging nightmare (ok that’s a bit of an exaggeration) is when your dry signal level is changing when you don’t want it to. When I turn on a chorus, I want to add some chorus not reduce my dry signal. If I take my mix level above 50%, that means I want more wet than dry and the only way to get that is to reduce the dry signal which I’m fine with if I went above 50.

Run your test again in Helix, it keeps the dry signal intact until you get above 50% mix.

Just something I don’t prefer that I’ll have to adjust to in FM9. I’ll get over it but I don’t like it.

D
 
dk_ace said:
Chorus, flangers, phasers, same thing. Really all effects would be expected to behave this way.

I just don’t get it if that chart is right. Why would anyone make it more complicated than the dry signal staying flat until you get above 50%? Then it behaves consistently regardless of the block and you just use your ears to adjust to any minor discrepancy in how you perceive it in your patch or where you want the sound to sit in the mix.

Even if you wanted to treat different blocks differently on the dry level, one would expect that similar blocks behave the same. That chart shows 3 different dry options between the delay blocks. Just makes no sense to me.

Who would ever think a 50% mix compressor should drop their dry volume by 6dB? Does any parallel compressor pedal on the market do that? I’m not aware of any. I’ve been struggling to get the compressor block to do what I want/expect at certain settings, now I understand why…

It is what it is, but that’s a lot of unnecessary stuff to keep up with.

D
Click to expand...
Ok, now I don't agree at all.
With modulation effects you want them to have the same level as when they're bypassed, otherwise you'll always need to adjust their output level (been there with a few analog modulation pedals and... no thanks).
Same with comps or drives, as it is currently you can tweak the mix and always get roughly the same output level from the block, no matter its setting.
If it worked the way you wish you'd get a 6dB boost at 50% and you'd need to constantly adjust the level to compensate for the mix.

Any compressor with a mix knob work like that btw... Well actually pretty much any mix knob except those usually found on delays and some reverbs (both hardware and software)
 
dk_ace said:
A gain staging nightmare (ok that’s a bit of an exaggeration) is when your dry signal level is changing when you don’t want it to. When I turn on a chorus, I want to add some chorus not reduce my dry signal. If I take my mix level above 50%, that means I want more wet than dry and the only way to get that is to reduce the dry signal which I’m fine with if I went above 50.

Run your test again in Helix, it keeps the dry signal intact until you get above 50% mix.

Just something I don’t prefer that I’ll have to adjust to in FM9. I’ll get over it but I don’t like it.

D
Click to expand...
I don't think you have any idea what you're listening for with the Helix compressor. If it weren't reducing the dry level as you increased mix from 0-50%, then the signal would be doubling as you raised the mix level from 0 to 50%. That is most definitely not happening.

I don't think most chorus pedals with a mix knob on them are just adding wet effect -- if they were, then every time you turned a chorus pedal on, you'd get a pretty healthy level boost.

The tapers, etc., on all of these devices are a bit different and take some getting used to (and some manual reading), but they all seem to just be slightly different approaches to making sure that the mixer adjusts the relative ratio of dry and wet signals without massively altering the output from the block. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Yeah, pretty much all modulation pedals I've seen with a mix knob work like fractal blocks, otherwise they'd boost the volume.
Even the ones without a mix knob internally mix the two signals by reducing both to achieve unity gain... But some fail miserably (electric mistress, I'm looking at you) and have a volume drop when engaged
 
Ok, so I tested some modulations on helix native, there's no way to measure the level of the dry signal alone cuz there's no input gain control, no phase reverse switch for one channel of the wet signal and in mono blocks the dry signal is summed to mono as well, unlike on the fractal.
Anyway, I could measure the output level of the whole block (so dry+wet) and I get a 2-3 dB boost when the mix is set at 50%, the same behaviour I get on the fm9, so i can safely suppose the mix law is identical.

Delays behave the same too, with the dry staying constant till 50% and reduced with higher values.

I also tested a few comps and I get roughly a 3dB boost at 50% on the helix (with the block not compressing at all), while I get no boost at all on the fm9, no matter the mix knob position. So there's a difference here but imho it's better how it's done on the fractal.
 
Actually, messing around a bit more with the kinky comp and...it does seem to be doing some sort of straight signal addiition. However, the modulations in Helix are absolutely reducing direct signal as the output stays pretty much unity throughout the mix knob range.
 
DLC86 said:
Ok, so I tested some modulations on helix native, there's no way to measure the level of the dry signal alone cuz there's no input gain control, no phase reverse switch for one channel of the wet signal and in mono blocks the dry signal is summed to mono as well, unlike on the fractal.
Anyway, I could measure the output level of the whole block (so dry+wet) and I get a 2-3 dB boost when the mix is set at 50%, the same behaviour I get on the fm9, so i can safely suppose the mix law is identical.

Delays behave the same too, with the dry staying constant till 50% and reduced with higher values.

I also tested a few comps and I get roughly a 3dB boost at 50% on the helix (with the block not compressing at all), while I get no boost at all on the fm9, no matter the mix knob position. So there's a difference here but imho it's better how it's done on the fractal.
Click to expand...
I wasn't measuring levels, just ears because no computer at the moment. With the kinky comp and no compression, I noticed a continuous signal level increase from 0 all the way up to 100%.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Actually, messing around a bit more with the kinky comp and...it does seem to be doing some sort of straight signal addiition. However, the modulations in Helix are absolutely reducing direct signal as the output stays pretty much unity throughout the mix knob range.
Click to expand...

I probably went a bit too far on the modulation bit as I rarely used modulation effects and didn’t pay that close of attention. I’m fairly certain delay, reverb, and comp behave as I described.

Clearly there are people that prefer opposite approaches to this. I happen to like the Helix behavior and dislike the FM9 behavior. Seems like there are plenty of people on the opposite side of that fence.

I’ll adapt, just not my favorite flavor of ice cream. Now that I know what it’s doing I’ll just have to keep that in mind as I dial stuff in.

D
 
dk_ace said:
I probably went a bit too far on the modulation bit as I rarely used modulation effects and didn’t pay that close of attention. I’m fairly certain delay, reverb, and comp behave as I described.

Clearly there are people that prefer opposite approaches to this. I happen to like the Helix behavior and dislike the FM9 behavior. Seems like there are plenty of people on the opposite side of that fence.

I’ll adapt, just not my favorite flavor of ice cream. Now that I know what it’s doing I’ll just have to keep that in mind as I dial stuff in.

D
Click to expand...
In general, I think Helix works reasonably well when one just looks at it as "a box of tons of gear". I generally find the Fractal stuff to be a lot easier when used as a Fractal Box that is capable of modeling a whole bunch of gear (and more) if that makes sense. I don't always agree with the choices that Cliff has made in designing the thing, but rarely have I found something where it does something in a way that doesn't have a reason or wasn't thought through in some way.
 
Boudoir Guitar said:
Actually, messing around a bit more with the kinky comp and...it does seem to be doing some sort of straight signal addiition. However, the modulations in Helix are absolutely reducing direct signal as the output stays pretty much unity throughout the mix knob range.
Click to expand...
Yeah, probably in this case a vu meter doesn't match perception. I also measured with depth set to 0 otherwise the level would jump around
 
Hapless said:
Guys! Fractal Audio Employee AdminM@ posted on the Fractal FM3 forum, "The Release candidate for a public beta is going to the beta testers today for a final check."

Thanks for reading and please like and subscribe for more quality content.
Click to expand...
Probably be a Firmware Friday can’t wait to read the release notes on this one it probably 3 pages
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

jellodog
Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope
51 52 53
Replies
1K
Views
63K
jellodog
jellodog
Will Chen
The Digitech RP500 has a special place in my heart.
Replies
16
Views
884
JCW308
JCW308
TubeStack
NMD: Line 6 Helix Floor
4 5 6
Replies
117
Views
6K
ragingplatypi
R
Iron1
Uncle TGF Needs YOU! (please read)(pretty please?)
2
Replies
23
Views
847
Iron1
Iron1
DLC86
The Tone Scientist (YouTube channel feed)
2 3
Replies
41
Views
3K
DLC86
DLC86
Back
Top