Fractal Talk
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SwirlyMaple
Shredder
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Hello and welcome!Hi, guys! I'm a new member here and also a new FM3 user. Nice to meet you all!
Please make sure to vote in our incredibly important new-member poll: https://thegearforum.com/threads/dill-pickles-or-sweet-pickles.135
Stone
Rock Star
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- 5,746
Ughh I really didn't need to read this --->
A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!
Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.
The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.
For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.
It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.
I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.
Thank you very Much @FractalAudio
A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!
Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.
The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.
For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.
It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.
I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.
Thank you very Much @FractalAudio
Warmart
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,816
Easy there @Stone, you're fine, you can resist the lure - your shit is sounding fantastic and you don't need to do anything drastic. 'Cept perhaps another beer.Ughh I really didn't need to read this --->
A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!
Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.
The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.
For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.
It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.
I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.
Thank you very Much @FractalAudio
fretworn
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,158
Ughh I really didn't need to read this --->
A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!
Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.
The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.
For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.
It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.
I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.
Thank you very Much @FractalAudio
This is why I have 1000W of SS amplification going into a pair 325W speaker cabinets (at eight ohms).
Be amazed with what dynamic headroom does for your sound.
eggpl@nt
Roadie
- Messages
- 903
My dumbass tried clicking through the pictures of the amplifier, not realizing this was a screenshot lol
Yes I looked into these too. There was a user on the FAS forum who had a pretty favorable write-up.
- Messages
- 367
In general I'm not a fan of Class-D amplification but the Hypex stuff is decent. Certainly better than the ICEpower stuff but more expensive.
Class-D is popular because it's efficient and cheap (and lightweight). It's always been a sonic compromise over other classes though it continues to get better.
Class-D is popular because it's efficient and cheap (and lightweight). It's always been a sonic compromise over other classes though it continues to get better.
OrganicZed
Roadie
- Messages
- 573
@Stone
If you want a more detailed look at what Cliff was talking about with regards to class D vs traditional solid state amps, I found this video to be informative. In this particular example the amp is class H which is a derivative of the class AB design.
The TL/DR is that the "1600W" class D amp can only produce 1600W of power for about 250 ms and it actually sits at about 550W of continuous power output whereas the class H design actually produces the rated 400W per channel as RMS power. This tracks well with what Cliff was saying. An amp rated at 500W class D can likely only produce 500W as a peak burst power and the RMS power is substantially lower.
When I did a side by side of a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 700 amp (class D rated for 350W into 8 Ohms per channel) vs a QSC RMX 2450 (class H 450W into 8 Ohms) with the Axe-FX I found that the QSC gave the same tone more low end thump even when volume matched with a DB meter.
If you want a more detailed look at what Cliff was talking about with regards to class D vs traditional solid state amps, I found this video to be informative. In this particular example the amp is class H which is a derivative of the class AB design.
The TL/DR is that the "1600W" class D amp can only produce 1600W of power for about 250 ms and it actually sits at about 550W of continuous power output whereas the class H design actually produces the rated 400W per channel as RMS power. This tracks well with what Cliff was saying. An amp rated at 500W class D can likely only produce 500W as a peak burst power and the RMS power is substantially lower.
When I did a side by side of a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 700 amp (class D rated for 350W into 8 Ohms per channel) vs a QSC RMX 2450 (class H 450W into 8 Ohms) with the Axe-FX I found that the QSC gave the same tone more low end thump even when volume matched with a DB meter.
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0XI0
Roadie
- Messages
- 451
LP Custom SD SH-4 JB into boss GE-7 mid boost into Marshall super bass. Mixed with recto. Almost the same tone as Jon Siebels from Eve 6 on Horrorscope, Guild Bluesbird into JCM800 and Triple Rec mixed. The only recorded guitar tone I've ever heard that beats Make Yourself, PRS Mcarty archtop into Tremoverb
- Messages
- 9,533
FWIW, if Fractal put out a power solution I’d buy it the same way I bought the FM9; purchased first and read the specs after.
eggpl@nt
Roadie
- Messages
- 903
Honestly, even just an "endorsement" is a great guide for users who want to use the best equipment, vetted by the man himself, alongside the Axe-Fx. For example, the FAS store carrying RedSound stuff, to me, reads like an endorsement, and as a Fractal-head, that would be my go-to "FRFR" if I was in the market.
fretworn
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,158
While I traditionally hate Yamaha monitors… I bought the HS8s because of @FractalAudio supportive posts on his own forum.
Good call
Good call
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metropolis_4
Rock Star
- Messages
- 2,857
Any time I try using a Friedman model I find myself trying to dial the Friedman out of it to make it sound like a Marshall.
And then I think why am I bothering with something that sounds like a Marshall when I’ve got actual Marshalls.
And then I think why am I bothering with something that sounds like a Marshall when I’ve got actual Marshalls.
OrganicZed
Roadie
- Messages
- 573
- Messages
- 14,545
I know I have tended to grind that same sentiment into dust, but that doesn't
make it any less true for me.
Last night using the 1959SLP it was instant gratification. It's just right there under
your fingertips. In an instant. No fuss. No muss.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 14,545
Ughh I really didn't need to read this --->
A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!
Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.
The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.
For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.
It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.
I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.
Thank you very Much @FractalAudio
Just my 2 cents.... and a little experience using various power sources. This is where
something like a Power Station can come in super handy. Or a tube amp with an
FX Return.
I am also happy with other solutions. But there is something to be said for tube power
sections that make all the various solid state options a bit of compromise. Not that
compromise is a bad thing.
SwirlyMaple
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,329
Well, I got my FM9 back from RMA this morning. Box looked great; no damage at all. As soon as I took it out of the bag, I noticed the sound of something very tiny falling from end to end inside it.
Then I plugged it in, and it appeared to boot normally to the presets screen. I pushed the "Page >" button once, and the screen immediately went black, and the tempo LED went out again, just like it was doing before. The top 3 scribble strips aren't lighting up at all either.
I'm not too happy. I just emailed them again, and thankfully I had the forethought to record video of all of this stuff as it was happening, but I politely but firmly insisted they send me a brand new one before Thanksgiving. I offered to pay Next Day Air out of my pocket again, because I am stupid with my money.
I'm sure they'll take care of it, but sadly my first experience with Fractal gear has been a major fail. I bought this unit 10/19, and I've only gotten to use it for a couple weeks. On the bright side, I loved everything else about it. Tones are killer. Just wish I actually had one I could use and trust!
Then I plugged it in, and it appeared to boot normally to the presets screen. I pushed the "Page >" button once, and the screen immediately went black, and the tempo LED went out again, just like it was doing before. The top 3 scribble strips aren't lighting up at all either.
I'm not too happy.
I just emailed them again, and thankfully I had the forethought to record video of all of this stuff as it was happening, but I politely but firmly insisted they send me a brand new one before Thanksgiving. I offered to pay Next Day Air out of my pocket again, because I am stupid with my money.I'm sure they'll take care of it, but sadly my first experience with Fractal gear has been a major fail. I bought this unit 10/19, and I've only gotten to use it for a couple weeks. On the bright side, I loved everything else about it. Tones are killer. Just wish I actually had one I could use and trust!
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