Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope

With regards to Line 6, I think that competition is already on. From my own personal experience with the TMP, out of the box, I think the TMP already sounds better than the Helix. I don't like the Helix effects and with a Tonex pedal in the loop of the TMP, it beats it hands down. Albeit, I think the TMP compressor is not very good.
The other major players are a different story and are purely speculation on my part as below.
-I'm not sure how long Cliff will stay interested with retirement as a possibility. I've sensed his frustration on the Fractal forum and eventually he has to relax sometime. Deep down I've been wondering why he's been blasting so many firmware versions in the past 6 months. Is this the end game? I have no idea.
-Doug Castro's head, as far as I've seen, has never really been in the game. Early on he was quoted that if he had to do it all over again he wasn't sure he would release a modeler at all, not really words of encouragement. Perhaps he can sell the company off or be a silent owner but where is the goal line for NDSP? All of this reminds me of a Lee Anderton video where Christoph Kemper was plugging a carrying case. Christoph was quite relaxed and satisfied with his product even though it was about 9 years old. I have a lot of respect for Christoph. He put out a fantastic product and for the most part has enjoyed quite a ride with minimal adjustments.
I would not count Fractal out I think they have at least one more generation to come
And we all know their focus will be deliver a much improved GUI and user experience, I believe they want to shake that monkey once and for all
 
I would not count Fractal out I think they have at least one more generation to come
And we all know their focus will be deliver a much improved GUI and user experience, I believe they want to shake that monkey once and for all
I suspect Fractal would prefer to cater for pro’s and have a smaller (but more dedicated and “pro”) share of the market. I can’t see them releasing more products than what they currently offer now, nor at a lower price. My guess is they’ll keep their share of the market, or possibly grow a little as more and more people switch towards modelling.
 
I would not count Fractal out I think they have at least one more generation to come
And we all know their focus will be deliver a much improved GUI and user experience, I believe they want to shake that monkey once and for all
oh ya, Cliff could run the ship into his 90's if fate permits and if he wants. I'm not sure if they could ever build a GUI that everyone will be happy with though. The inherent hurdle is there are so many configurable parameters by design. Regardless of the mechanism used, it's still going to be loads of options with the navigation of many screens.
 
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I think Line 6 have a huge advantage with experience of bringing products to launch, have learned a ton of lessons on what works and what doesn’t, and most of all, they have a full line of products using Helix tech that gets into the hands of a WIDE section of the market.

Bands can have a Helix rack, Helix pedal, HX stomp, HX Native in the studio, delays on the pedal board, pod go backstage and god knows whatever else. They also have a long standing brand reputation, comparable sales channels to Fender.

As much as I love Fractal, they aren’t going for the market like that - they’re more like a boutique company appealing to a niche of the market. I’d love to see them licence their tech if Cliff ever decides to retire.

NDSP kind of forged a new market of plugins, and have tried to supplement their success there with a HW modeller. I suspect they’ll struggle to match Line 6’s dominance although it seems like they’d like to attempt it. Fender TMP seems a bit more like that, albeit without the plugin users.
Maybe some look at line6 and tmp more competitive because they are so readily avail at chain stores like gc? Walk-in and walk out vs fractal or Kenner or ToneX …
 
I think that the tone master pro is a Hefty unit. It’s solid. It looks good and it’s coming along nicely but for some reason I feel by the time it catches up to fractal tractor will have a new iteration of the FM and the ASX line out so will again be kind of in the dust, same with a new helix replacement by the time the TMP gets rolling and gets all these updates that are coming companies will already be into their next generation of modellers the same kind of goes for the Quad core however I think the Quad core or Quad cortex seems to sit between the TMP and the fractal units in so far is offering more because it does have the profile and capability while the Quad cortex has not come through on everything that’s been promised since release years ago it seems like a more unique piece of gear than even the fender TMP is however I cannot argue that the TMP is very solidly built and looks good The gooey is definitely well thought out but needs work as the pictures are cute but the space on the screen is not used efficiently but I’m hoping that Forward will incorporate the trend of at least using switches that are knobs as well as the Quad tech says used and the TMP uses That to me would be a very good upgrade for a fractal helix units in general even if they don’t go touchscreen
You dictated this into your smartphone mic, didn’t you?
 
I would not count Fractal out I think they have at least one more generation to come
And we all know their focus will be deliver a much improved GUI and user experience, I believe they want to shake that monkey once and for all
On what basis do we know this? Certainly not by way of anything Cliff has said.
 
On what basis do we know this? Certainly not by way of anything Cliff has said.
By the definition of insanity
You cannot do the same thing and expect different results
The Achilles heel of the Fractal devices for the last 10 years for many is the GUI

Cliff has not said so much but there are hints when people say I would love to see 1 amp model for all of the channels with all the switches instead of 4 different models and he has said “I can’t do that in this Gen maybe future
 
With regards to Line 6, I think that competition is already on. From my own personal experience with the TMP, out of the box, I think the TMP already sounds better than the Helix. I don't like the Helix effects and with a Tonex pedal in the loop of the TMP, it beats it hands down. Albeit, I think the TMP compressor is not very good.
I think the Helix, especially the LT and Stomp, are still very favorably priced in comparison to other units on the market. Helix Floor, QC and TMP are roughly in the same price category even in the EU, but Helix Floor is still the most "all in one" out of those with its integrated expression pedal, more I/O and footswitching. That said, the QC still seems to be the top seller.

I fully expect that next gen Line6 won't be just a "QC/TMP made by Line6". I think they will actually be far more forward thinking, possible making the QC and TMP feel like the "Nintendo Wii U of modelers" - devices in between the old and new generation.

The other major players are a different story and are purely speculation on my part as below.
-I'm not sure how long Cliff will stay interested with retirement as a possibility. I've sensed his frustration on the Fractal forum and eventually he has to relax sometime. Deep down I've been wondering why he's been blasting so many firmware versions in the past 6 months. Is this the end game? I have no idea.
To me Cliff seems like the kind of guy who has the most fun when he's working on amp simulation and effects. It's like a puzzle he has to solve. I can totally understand that, because that's kind of the part that I love about my own programming work - there's a lot of satisfaction to be had when you figure out a hard problem or manage to make something you feel works great and is elegant code.

He's probably not too far off from having the amp modeling stuff pretty much nailed, and the next gen processing power might get there. Maybe next gen will also have him make fuzz effects that are dead on accurate to their analog counterparts, including interacting with your guitar pickup impedance.

He's not the guy who cares so much about how the unit is to operate, how easy Axe-Edit is to use etc. That's why I've been saying Fractal needs designers and developers who are as passionate about usability as Cliff is about modeling.

Maybe developing on the Axe-Fx 3 still allows him to focus most on the actual algorithms without worrying about architecture or UI. Then they can figure out how to port that to a new architecture that is probably in development for the next gen units because they probably want things like having various switches and channels all in one model instead of spread to several different models. I'm sure there will be a ton of Axe-Fx 3 code behind the scenes on the Axe-Fx 4.

-Doug Castro's head, as far as I've seen, has never really been in the game. Early on he was quoted that if he had to do it all over again he wasn't sure he would release a modeler at all, not really words of encouragement. Perhaps he can sell the company off or be a silent owner but where is the goal line for NDSP? All of this reminds me of a Lee Anderton video where Christoph Kemper was plugging a carrying case. Christoph was quite relaxed and satisfied with his product even though it was about 9 years old. I have a lot of respect for Christoph. He put out a fantastic product and for the most part has enjoyed quite a ride with minimal adjustments.
Doug Castro is now probably purely business management and not involved in day to day development operations at all. His days are probably built around figuring out how to make the company more valuable, possibly work with parts supply chain management etc. NeuralDSP appears from time to time in Finnish business magazine articles and the people interviewed tend to be Doug Castro or Francisco Cresp.

The end goal may be the same as many tech startups: get bought by a bigger player, and the top brass get a good payday and people who joined early and own company stock get a decent payoff as well. But with Fender making their own competing product, maybe the brands that might buy NDSP could be e.g Gibson or Zound (who own Marshall).

IMO Christoph Kemper's problem is that he's too happy to sit on his laurels and believe in the superiority of his solution. It took 10 years to get USB audio support on Kemper, to the point people thought the hardware was not there. Similarly the Liquid Profiling seems like something he's experimented with but didn't want to push out unless there was competition.

Kemper Stage and Player are both products that were released years after they should have been, so both feel dated right on release. I imagine they would be far more popular if Stage came out in 2017 instead of 2019, or Player in 2020 instead of late 2023. At this rate, the "Kemper 2" will release in 2028 when everyone else is already ahead of whatever Christoph's idea of a "Kemper 2" might look like if they started developing it in 2024.
 
Cliff has not said so much but there are hints when people say I would love to see 1 amp model for all of the channels with all the switches instead of 4 different models and he has said “I can’t do that in this Gen maybe future

The 4 models in 1 is more of a compute problem than a UI issue. I mean yes it declutters existing menus, but within the FAS block channel structure (which is BADASS) it would be ridiculously difficult to have a single block house 4 amps that all now contain every channel and mode for each amp.

I mean in theory it should be easier for Neural to do this on the QC since their amp block is just a single amp, vs Fractal which nests 4 amps within a single amp block.


By the definition of insanity
You cannot do the same thing and expect different results
The Achilles heel of the Fractal devices for the last 10 years for many is the GUI

FAS needs to release a FAS Native box. (UAD satellite, but FAS) It would be a massive hammer drop on the plugin market and it completely bypasses the UI issues since plugin users are using editors, which FAS already has an excellent one.

A tablet editor would make a lot of sense too.
 
I think the Helix, especially the LT and Stomp, are still very favorably priced in comparison to other units on the market. Helix Floor, QC and TMP are roughly in the same price category even in the EU, but Helix Floor is still the most "all in one" out of those with its integrated expression pedal, more I/O and footswitching. That said, the QC still seems to be the top seller.

I fully expect that next gen Line6 won't be just a "QC/TMP made by Line6". I think they will actually be far more forward thinking, possible making the QC and TMP feel like the "Nintendo Wii U of modelers" - devices in between the old and new generation.


To me Cliff seems like the kind of guy who has the most fun when he's working on amp simulation and effects. It's like a puzzle he has to solve. I can totally understand that, because that's kind of the part that I love about my own programming work - there's a lot of satisfaction to be had when you figure out a hard problem or manage to make something you feel works great and is elegant code.

He's probably not too far off from having the amp modeling stuff pretty much nailed, and the next gen processing power might get there. Maybe next gen will also have him make fuzz effects that are dead on accurate to their analog counterparts, including interacting with your guitar pickup impedance.

He's not the guy who cares so much about how the unit is to operate, how easy Axe-Edit is to use etc. That's why I've been saying Fractal needs designers and developers who are as passionate about usability as Cliff is about modeling.

Maybe developing on the Axe-Fx 3 still allows him to focus most on the actual algorithms without worrying about architecture or UI. Then they can figure out how to port that to a new architecture that is probably in development for the next gen units because they probably want things like having various switches and channels all in one model instead of spread to several different models. I'm sure there will be a ton of Axe-Fx 3 code behind the scenes on the Axe-Fx 4.


Doug Castro is now probably purely business management and not involved in day to day development operations at all. His days are probably built around figuring out how to make the company more valuable, possibly work with parts supply chain management etc. NeuralDSP appears from time to time in Finnish business magazine articles and the people interviewed tend to be Doug Castro or Francisco Cresp.

The end goal may be the same as many tech startups: get bought by a bigger player, and the top brass get a good payday and people who joined early and own company stock get a decent payoff as well. But with Fender making their own competing product, maybe the brands that might buy NDSP could be e.g Gibson or Zound (who own Marshall).

IMO Christoph Kemper's problem is that he's too happy to sit on his laurels and believe in the superiority of his solution. It took 10 years to get USB audio support on Kemper, to the point people thought the hardware was not there. Similarly the Liquid Profiling seems like something he's experimented with but didn't want to push out unless there was competition.

Kemper Stage and Player are both products that were released years after they should have been, so both feel dated right on release. I imagine they would be far more popular if Stage came out in 2017 instead of 2019, or Player in 2020 instead of late 2023. At this rate, the "Kemper 2" will release in 2028 when everyone else is already ahead of whatever Christoph's idea of a "Kemper 2" might look like if they started developing it in 2024.
I am actually very skeptical there will ever be a Kemper 2
Christoph has pretty much used the same tech for 14 years
Kemper like Fractal if anything is to change I suspect the GUI would be where it might see and update

The other thing they will do is probably release the paid updates for the player that gives it the pitch stuff , morphing etc etc

But as far as new stuff , I don’t think you will see much on that front
 
[…] FAS needs to release a FAS Native box. (UAD satellite, but FAS) It would be a massive hammer drop on the plugin market and it completely bypasses the UI issues since plugin users are using editors, which FAS already has an excellent one.

A tablet editor would make a lot of sense too.
Computers have become so powerful, that outboard DSP boxes just don‘t make sense anymore, except as an oversized dongle for the purpose of copy protection. I would much prefer an „Axe-FX Native“ plugin.
 
I am actually very skeptical there will ever be a Kemper 2
Christoph has pretty much used the same tech for 14 years
Kemper like Fractal if anything is to change I suspect the GUI would be where it might see and update

The other thing they will do is probably release the paid updates for the player that gives it the pitch stuff , morphing etc etc

But as far as new stuff , I don’t think you will see much on that front
Kemper might just pivot to the same sort of PyTorch machine learning thing Tonex and NAM use. If they can make creating the captures as easy to do as it's on the current Kemper then that will have appeal as well, as now the approach is somewhat "techy" for guitarists.

As it is, most capture boxes that are not Kemper or QC require captures to be done using a computer and won't have the kind of integration those two offer with a full suite of effects etc. I'm sure there's some sort of "Amplitube Floor" coming from IK eventually, and that will probably put more pressure on Kemper too.

I feel Kemper is at the biggest risk of going under from cheaper, more modern competitors eating their lunch. Maybe Christoph Kemper is even ok with that and will just retire.
 
Computers have become so powerful, that outboard DSP boxes just don‘t make sense anymore, except as an oversized dongle for the purpose of copy protection. I would much prefer an „Axe-FX Native“ plugin.
I'd love "Axe-Fx Native" too, but there might be value in an Axe-Fx audio interface box that acts to provide the exact right I/O to work with the plugin so you don't have to worry about input levels and such, and there's a copy protection system in place to prevent piracy. The actual processing can run on your computer.

I remember Fractal saying at some point that the Axe-Fx 2 was so demanding that you'd need the top dog Intel/AMD processors available at the time to run it. We are massively more multi-core, higher single core processing power nowadays so I would imagine an "Axe-Fx Native" would be totally possible.
 
Computers have become so powerful, that outboard DSP boxes just don‘t make sense anymore, except as an oversized dongle for the purpose of copy protection. I would much prefer an „Axe-FX Native“ plugin.

Of course, me too, but if his reservations (right or wrong) are someone reverse engineering his methods, or cracking it, and a box is the way around it, LFG. Who gives a shit if you just hide a box under your desk anyway? :ROFLMAO:
 
FAS needs to release a FAS Native box. (UAD satellite, but FAS)
it would be an ok compromise, but it would still mean limited instance counts in a session and slower bounce times from a project if the DSP is handled in the box (a la UAD). There is SO MUCH that it could offer that is a PITA right now. But I’d prefer any required HW is just a dongle and POSSIBLY a dedicated spdif DI box+A/D
 
it would be an ok compromise, but it would still mean limited instance counts in a session and slower bounce times from a project if the DSP is handled in the box (a la UAD). There is SO MUCH that it could offer that is a PITA right now. But I’d prefer any required HW is just a dongle and POSSIBLY a dedicated spdif DI box+A/D

I’d love it to be entirely in the box too. Just spitballing ways it could actually happen. If a dongle/box is required, fine.

I just think for all the talk about FAS needing to update their UI, (They do) I actually think a FAS Native solution should be a bigger near term priority. The dudes using Fractal stuff are managing the hardware UI fine, but FAS could completely change the game with a FAS Native solution. It would be the dominant plugin solution.
 
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