Fender Tone Master Bassman

[metropolis_4]

Yeah, but there are like a million used PRRI kicking around for less than $950, most of which just sat in some dudes bedroom with volume on 1 their whole lives.

Yeah, but they can’t run silent direct from an XLR out and they don’t have as low a noise floor. There are still differences that might make you prefer one over the other

 

[ucnick]

Can you name one? I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I’ve never heard of anyone regularly pushing a BF twin to the point of distortion that a loop would be useful. Genuinely curious who is doing this.

D

As I recall, Santana used a Twin on first two LPS before he went Mesa.

 

[Antipodes]

As I recall, Santana used a Twin on first two LPS before he went Mesa.

His tour in 74 used a silverface twin - playing the material from Caravanserai and Abraxas mainly. Whether it was stock is another matter. The tiny Boogie he was playing the next year was a hot-rodded Princeton. I wondered whether the twin had an extra gain stage or something.

 

[EOengineer]

The more I think about this amp the more disappointed I am in Fender. If Fender wanted to be innovative they should do something actually innovative. These amps are innovation theater.

Each one of the tonemaster amps should have contained digital models of other vintage Fender amps sharing the form factor you purchased (1x12, 4x10, 2x12 etc) with let’s say a dozen or so presets.

Imagine a tweed Bassman tonemaster where you could switch over to a blackface Super Reverb? Or the Deluxe Reverb tonemaster where you can switch over to a 5E3 tweed deluxe or brown 6G3 deluxe. It’s every Fender fans dream to have great black, brown, and tweed tones in one lightweight portable amp.

These amps smack of a company that doesn’t respect its customers enough to offer them something that isn’t insulting, frankly. These could be so much more if anybody at Fender gave a shit anymore.

 

[FuzzyAce]

The more I think about this amp the more disappointed I am in Fender. If Fender wanted to be innovative they should do something actually innovative. These amps are innovation theater.

Each one of the tonemaster amps should have contained digital models of other vintage Fender amps sharing the form factor you purchased (1x12, 4x10, 2x12 etc) with let’s say a dozen or so presets.

Imagine a tweed Bassman tonemaster where you could switch over to a blackface Super Reverb? Or the Deluxe Reverb tonemaster where you can switch over to a 5E3 tweed deluxe or brown 6G3 deluxe. It’s every Fender fans dream to have great black, brown, and tweed tones in one lightweight portable amp.

These amps smack of a company that doesn’t respect its customers enough to offer them something that isn’t insulting, frankly. These could be so much more if anybody at Fender gave a shit anymore.

I get what you're saying but then why not just get the TMP modeler and a FR-12? More money but with more options. They may still do something like what you suggest in the near future?
But the reality is most guitarists want something very simple and straight forward. And the ones that don't problem do they just won't admit it.
So keeping the TM amps simple and paying tribute to their heritage is a smart move I think.

 

[Antipodes]

@Fuzzy
I think you are problably right and I imagine they did some market research first. This forum full of modeling enthusiasts - who can never have enough amp and FX models - is probably not the target market. The device targeted at that market was the TMP.

 

[dronerstone]

The more I think about this amp the more disappointed I am in Fender. If Fender wanted to be innovative they should do something actually innovative. These amps are innovation theater.

Each one of the tonemaster amps should have contained digital models of other vintage Fender amps sharing the form factor you purchased (1x12, 4x10, 2x12 etc) with let’s say a dozen or so presets.

Imagine a tweed Bassman tonemaster where you could switch over to a blackface Super Reverb? Or the Deluxe Reverb tonemaster where you can switch over to a 5E3 tweed deluxe or brown 6G3 deluxe. It’s every Fender fans dream to have great black, brown, and tweed tones in one lightweight portable amp.

These amps smack of a company that doesn’t respect its customers enough to offer them something that isn’t insulting, frankly. These could be so much more if anybody at Fender gave a shit anymore.

I know exactly what you mean, and would've really enjoyed that approach, might've even bought a 2x12" then (?), but yes, this is clearly directed at a very specific target market -> "analog/tube minimalists" who are either curious to dare and tip their pinky toe into digital/solid-state waters, or who are aging and have severe back issues.

Being able to dial in various amp models would scare them away quickly, like shy animals rustling through woodwork, only to retreat to their mancaves filled with 100 lbs combo amps from yesteryear.

It didn't work when they tried and released the Cyber Twin (which I think was a pretty cool idea at the time, and a legit amp), and it probably wouldn't work today.

Change is fear.

EDIT: To be clear, no bad blood please, my rant was intentionally written in a satire way. All good...

 

[EOengineer]

I get what you're saying but then why not just get the TMP modeler and a FR-12? More money but with more options. They may still do something like what you suggest in the near future?
But the reality is most guitarists want something very simple and straight forward. And the ones that don't problem do they just won't admit it.
So keeping the TM amps simple and paying tribute to their heritage is a smart move I think.

I probably articulated this poorly, but part of the intent of grouping/limiting the available digital models by the physical amp’s cab/speaker form factor is to preserve what those enclosures and guitar speakers contribute to the overall tone and playing experience…IMO a lot.

I wouldn’t want to bring "FRFR" into at all.

I know exactly what you mean, and would've really enjoyed that approach, might've even bought a 2x12" then (?), but yes, this is clearly directed at a very specific target market -> "analog/tube minimalists" who are either curious to dare and tip their pinky toe into digital/solid-state waters, or who are aging and have severe back issues.

Being able to dial in various amp models would scare them away quickly, like shy animals rustling through woodwork, only to retreat to their mancaves filled with 100 lbs combo amps from yesteryear.

It didn't work when they tried and released the Cyber Twin (which I think was a pretty cool idea at the time, and a legit amp), and it probably wouldn't work today.

Change is fear.

EDIT: To be clear, no bad blood please, my rant was intentionally written in a satire way. All good...

I get it and I think you are both right that adding too much complexity runs the risk of scaring off your more traditional player.

I just think with even a small amount of creative effort Fender could have appeased both and cast a wider net.

Supply a beautiful printed booklet with the amp with big hi-res photos of the tweed bassman, brown and blackface bassmans, maybe tweed/blackface super reverbs if they want to be really generous. Explain the history of the amps, who used them, special quirks, etc. Lean into the history of amps and use tonemasters as a way to introduce people to your rich legacy.

Anyway, I’m beating a dead horse, you get the point.

 

[laxu]

The more I think about this amp the more disappointed I am in Fender. If Fender wanted to be innovative they should do something actually innovative. These amps are innovation theater.

Each one of the tonemaster amps should have contained digital models of other vintage Fender amps sharing the form factor you purchased (1x12, 4x10, 2x12 etc) with let’s say a dozen or so presets.

Imagine a tweed Bassman tonemaster where you could switch over to a blackface Super Reverb? Or the Deluxe Reverb tonemaster where you can switch over to a 5E3 tweed deluxe or brown 6G3 deluxe. It’s every Fender fans dream to have great black, brown, and tweed tones in one lightweight portable amp.

These amps smack of a company that doesn’t respect its customers enough to offer them something that isn’t insulting, frankly. These could be so much more if anybody at Fender gave a shit anymore.

That's more like what I would have liked them to be. The real guitar speaker of course means compromises, but e.g Bassman and Super use the same speaker model so it could flick between the two without issue.

For the Deluxe and Twin they could have offered e.g different eras of Fender, like Silverface vs Blackface etc on a 3-way switch.

I don't think they necessarily need presets or LCD displays or anything like that, but just a couple of variations on the theme would add a lot of utility.

It might be a deliberate choice to not make them appear too good vs the all tube flagship models, or have people complaining about it doing things the original tube amp doesn't do.

 

[Whizzinby]

It might be a deliberate choice to not make them appear too good vs the all tube flagship models,

They don’t have to worry about that, have you seen the price of a new Twin these days?

 

[EOengineer]

They don’t have to worry about that, have you seen the price of a new Twin these days?

I’m seeing $2100 in the US, which seems ABSURD for a barely serviceable non hardwired PCB amp in 2024.

Go buy a 70s silverface for a little over 1/3 of that, call it a day.

 

[metropolis_4]

The more I think about this amp the more disappointed I am in Fender. If Fender wanted to be innovative they should do something actually innovative. These amps are innovation theater.

Each one of the tonemaster amps should have contained digital models of other vintage Fender amps sharing the form factor you purchased (1x12, 4x10, 2x12 etc) with let’s say a dozen or so presets.

Imagine a tweed Bassman tonemaster where you could switch over to a blackface Super Reverb? Or the Deluxe Reverb tonemaster where you can switch over to a 5E3 tweed deluxe or brown 6G3 deluxe. It’s every Fender fans dream to have great black, brown, and tweed tones in one lightweight portable amp.

These amps smack of a company that doesn’t respect its customers enough to offer them something that isn’t insulting, frankly. These could be so much more if anybody at Fender gave a shit anymore.

I could see maybe something like switching between variations of the same amp, like maybe different popular mods of the amps.

But I don’t think the idea of combining everything with the same speaker configuration into one really makes sense to me. The differences between a Super Reverb and a Bassman go pretty far. They have completely different controls, different inputs, different cabinets, different speakers. There are a ton of physical differences outside of the “guts”

 

[EOengineer]

I could see maybe something like switching between variations of the same amp, like maybe different popular mods of the amps.

But I don’t think the idea of combining everything with the same speaker configuration into one really makes sense to me. The differences between a Super Reverb and a Bassman go pretty far. They have completely different controls, different inputs, different cabinets, different speakers. There are a ton of physical differences outside of the “guts”

The current production Super Reverb and Bassman tonemaster literally sell with the same Jensen P10-R speaker and there is a ~1 inch difference in the height/width of the cabinet with the same depth, so probably not significant differences there.

The different control layouts and functions are a valid concern but IMO not particularly complicated to overcome.

I’d be fine if the bassman didn’t do the super reverb thing though. Then just do the tweed, blonde, and blackface bassman variants. That can still cover a fair amount of ground.

 

[metropolis_4]

The current production Super Reverb and Bassman tonemaster literally sell with the same Jensen P10-R speaker and there is a ~1 inch difference in the height/width of the cabinet with the same depth, so probably not significant differences there.

The different control layouts and functions are a valid concern but IMO not particularly complicated to overcome.

I’d be fine if the bassman didn’t do the super reverb thing though. Then just do the tweed, blonde, and blackface bassman variants. That can still cover a fair amount of ground.

The Super Reverb and the 59 Bassman have so little in common other than the speaker configuration it just doesn’t make any logical sense to combine them. They’re entirely different beasts.

Since the concept of these amps is to recreate the physical aspects of the amp, if they were to squeeze tweed, blonde, and blackface Bassman models into this, then which control layout would it have? Would it have a presence control? What input layout? Would it be an open back combo or a piggyback? If it’s a combo would it be the 1x15 or 4x10 version? If a piggyback would it be the 1x12, 2x12, or 2x15?

And even if they did that they’re still going to have people who are mad and complaining about things like “I can’t believe they included the 6G6A and no AB864!”

Like it or not, I think they have a very clear concept driving these that makes sense - make amps that look and work like the amps everyone knows, only make them digital with a few modern conveniences

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, I'd like one of these companies to do an amp with "FRFR" speakers, yet still delivering an amp that'd work on it's own (ideally with a second channel, delay and reverb slapped in). That way you could use it standalone, as a more kinda traditional pedal platform and as modeler amplification.
From all I know, nothing like that exists so far. Which I actually find strange.

 

[EOengineer]

Since the concept of these amps is to recreate the physical aspects of the amp, if they were to squeeze tweed, blonde, and blackface Bassman models into this, then which control layout would it have? Would it have a presence control? What input layout?

I like your idea of incorporating popular mods into the design. Regarding the different layouts, there are a few different ways to skin that cat. Extra knobs can be repurposed to either switch mods in/out or add post shelving EQ or something like that - most of the modeling companies have solved this problem already.

 

[metropolis_4]

I like your idea of incorporating popular mods into the design. Regarding the different layouts, there are a few different ways to skin that cat. Extra knobs can be repurposed to either switch mods in/out or add post shelving EQ or something like that - most of the modeling companies have solved this problem already.

I think the problem with the layout differences is that ultimately what would work best would be to scrap the concept of it looking like the original and provide a row of encoders underneath a digital screen of some sort so the parameters of the knobs can be changed based on the model you pull up.

But if you do that, then you’ve gone away from the whole concept of making it look and function like the original so then why arbitrarily limit it to just a few models of one type of amp that this doesn’t even resemble? Why not include lots of models?

And then you’ve basically turned it into a Mustang GTX.

And you still have the issue of the inputs, the cabinet differences, and the speaker configurations.


I feel like as soon as you move away from the concept of “just make them look and function exactly like the originals” you start to open up all sorts of cans of worms and it gets messy.

Maybe that’s why they’ve stuck with a concept that provides clear boundaries and direction to the project?

 

[dronerstone]

I know it's merely a daydream, but a Fender amp sim head with various "official" models (and appropriate power scaling) would be rad.

Then make available various cabs based on the original combo amps, so users can buy what they like, e.g. 1x12, 2x12, 4x10...

Boom!

Yeah, no. Probably too niche, but I'd enjoy it.

 

[metropolis_4]

I know it's merely a daydream, but a Fender amp sim head with "official" models (and appropriate power scaling) would be rad.

Then make available various cabs based on the original combo amps, so users can buy what they like, e.g. 1x12, 2x12, 4x10...

Boom!

Yeah, no. Probably too niche, but I'd enjoy it.

I’d buy one.

It would be cool to see them do a modern version of the Cyber Twin head

I keep wishing they’d do a piggyback Tone Master. That way you bring the speaker when you need it, and when you’re just going direct you bring the head and leave the speaker at home.

 

[dronerstone]

I’d buy one.

It would be cool to see them do a modern version of the Cyber Twin head

I keep wishing they’d do a piggyback Tone Master. That way you bring the speaker when you need it, and when you’re just going direct you bring the head and leave the speaker at home.

That's some of what I believe Boss did just the right way with the Katana head.